For a change, how about an actual and honest discussion of Noah's Ark-

yet oddly, that fact doesn't send a red flag up at your place.

 

I've had this conversation with believers dozens of times, without an honest response yet. I get them talking about about geology and the sort of global evidence that a global flood should have left, and I normally even get them to agree on what the evidence should look like, and then they bail. Every time. It's actually happened on here several times, with supposedly science-interested believers suddenly declaring "Well, I'm not a geologist" and dumping the conversation.

If there were a global flood, there would be global geological evidence. There isn't. The questions about the ark are difficult enough, but YECs can never seem to explain how a global flood failed to leave behind a global footprint.

 

I was giving the most ancient one, and the one that looks remarkably like the ones the Hebrews borrowed.

I think that since man has been in his current form, and consciousness, for at least 50,000 years if not longer, that he has had the chance to experience devastating floods, perhaps from geologic events, that made it look like it was world wide, for their world was rather small generally speaking. So over time, these stories became embellished, to make for a more interesting campfire story and were passed on, even going from one tribe to another. They are great stories. When they became really embellished, they became myths. Man is a story teller, and always has been, even after he developed writing as a way to record them. But prior to that, everything was oral, pass on from generation to generation.

I do not take these stories in the bible to be true to the letter, but see them as myths, a colorful and interesting way to teach something important to the religion. That includes the Eden story, Jonah and the whale, and perhaps even Moses. The stories about Christ, was embellished, although his teaching are probably mostly accurate, for the teachings were more important early on than his biography. But I would not doubt if man even added to his teaching, for there seems to be some that are not coherent with other things he said. But all of the mystical sounding teachings I think are close to what he said, for what he was speaking of has to use such language. But I am getting off topic...

 

Your response is what I like to call "Damage Control". It's when you try to explain away something you don't quite fully understand.

It's unlikely that the bible got its flood story from one source when there's literally hundreds of cultures with the same story. The flood story is one of the most documented stories in the world.

Also, they aren't local floods, because each story says the entire world was flooded and not just some local geological location. It's impossible for each of the over 500 cultures to experience small local floods that all sound similar with many of them featuring the same 8 people in a boat.

What would the red flag be?

 

There is a story about a King in Sumer on the Euphrates River who hauled grain, beer and livestock down river on barges that broke loose in a 4 day flood in 2900 BC.... and there is evidence for that.

 

Each flood story is very different and they were local.... if they happened at all.. Floods leave a footprint.... a geologic record and that doesn't exist world wide.. Further, they are too many ancient ruins ... in Africa, Anatolia, Mesopotamia and China that were never flooded. Even Jericho was never flooded and it is way below sea level.

Its a children's story.. as an adult, you should be looking for the lesson in the story rather than some convoluted or fantastic supernatural explanation for something that never happened.

 

Yes.. sadly it is about lack of education..... and these people undermine faith because they don't understand the myths or their purpose.

 

"Legends of the Flood'


legend [ ˈlejənd ] NOUN

1.a traditional story sometimes popularly regarded as historical but unauthenticated:

 

Rubbish man. Mesopotamia is in the same area of the world. Put your cap of reason on for a few minutes and think it out. Civilization arose in that area. And that civilization had great influence on the surrounding areas. Yet you want to reject the idea that a story in the Epic of Gilgamesh, that is almost identical to the later Hebrew story, was not the source? It defies reason. In a court of law, if a copyright suit was waged over ownership of that story, the Hebrews would lose. That is because in courts, one has to use reason and rationality in order to seek truth and justice, using evidence. The evidence is there.

You do not understand how ancient cultures worked. Do as I did, and major in anthropology and get informed. Expose yourself to the volumes of human knowledge gained by objective investigation into our past as a species.

You want the myths of the bible to be completely factual stories, that happened exactly as written, for if not, that means that every word is not literally true. If not literally true, then your belief, which comes from your own authority, comes into question. You believe that every word of the bible since god wrote it, has to be literally true. But not all Christians have that belief, for it would be a belief in utter nonsense. This, the way you believe, is an evangelical fundamentalist thing, that arose in America about a hundred years or so ago. It arose from uneducated people. And it gets Christianity into trouble, when the light of reason is shined upon those beliefs. But your Christianity is not the only Christianity, there are more reasonable versions around, that are much older, and have a much richer tradition than fundamentalism does.

 

Mesopotamia is in the same area of the world as what? All 500+ cultures of the world that have the same flood story? What exactly are you trying to say here?

 

Yes, and these people embarrass me. They are not doing that religion any justice, and hurts it more than helps it. While not a member of organized Christianity, I was raised, conditioned as a Christian, but the way this guy believes, is what I was taught, and its what made me reject it. It was only later on in college that I learned of another Christianity, and the manner which this older Christianity saw the various myths in the bible, and their purpose.

 

What were we talking about? The flood myth of the Hebrews and the almost exact same story of Mesopotamia, the Sumerians if I recall it correctly.

Are you playing disconnected, for a reason, or am I just not clear enough?

Are you sure all 500 plus stories are as similar to the ones we are discussing? The god telling a man about what was about to occur. The boat, the gathering of life to put on the boat, so a seed stock so to speak would be available, the family he took with him, the rainbow as the promise?

I am sure the earliest story told was transmitted from culture to culture over time, and the ones who could write it down, did that. Man traded more than just goods, but also stories and ideas.

But are you trying to say, that 500 different cultures also had god to tell them to build a big boat, to gather life, for god was about to destroy all of humanity, and then that occurred, and god gave all of these cultures a rainbow as a sign of promise? But the gods that did this were not spoken of as the god of Noah. Other gods supposedly did this.

If 500 different cultures had this same experience, with their gods, then the god of noah was not special at all, and noah then becomes one of many who god saved. This also would mean that there are many gods, and yours aint special at all. Careful man, you are gonna drown yourself.

 

Lets think about this for a second, Margot. The cultural stories are saying the world was destroyed by a global flood, but you're arguing and saying the floods were local. I mean, it's one thing to not believe the stories at all, but it's another thing to try and rewrite them.
Source: http://www.apologeticspress.org/apcontent.aspx?category=9&article=64

 

Clearly, the stories are referring to a single event. The Hebrew story is just one out of over 500+ versions of the same event. I'm not sure you are quite understanding what I am saying here.

 

Has any Christian on here even tried to explain why Japan doesn't have a flood myth? I've asked several times, but I've never gotten an answer myself. It isn't like Japan is a stranger to the concept of flooding.

 

Makes sense.

 

Exactly how would all those cultures know that that the flood was global?

the fact over 500 cultures had/have flood stories is indicative of how widespread and frequent the natural process of flooding takes place ALL OVER THE WORLD. And those 500 cultures don't all have the same time frame.

As for a global flood, I guess you also failed to notice the continuous time line of Egyptian history that makes NO MENTION of getting wiped out in a flood. Or the Chinese documented history that must have missed that year, or the Janists in India. Funny how their civilizations as primitive as they were seemed to have missed the fact that they got wiped out by a year long flood.


But don't let a little thing like logic or common sense ruin a good fable.

 

1. If we accept the story from a Biblical point of view where there is Divine intervention, then size of animals and feeding is not a concern (Many ways God can go around the laws of physics)

2. If we accept it as a historical record with mythological embellishments, then we are talking about a major local flood, and we are talking about a large group local animals and birds, not all life forms on the planet.

3. If we accept it as a Sitchin Aliens/High tech Historical event then it could be tubes with genetic code not real animals.


That's some possible explanations.

 

You mention logic and common sense, but then you turn around and suggest that 500+ various cultures are writing about local floods. I mean, you really have to reach to come up with that. Then again, Jonsa, you typically do that anyway.

 

Most of the stories aren't even global flood stories, and in some cases (such as in Germanic and Scandinavian religion) we don't even have any record of the story until after the culture was in communication with and had begun converting to Christianity. But you are right. The only things you need to come up with a global flood story are 1) knowledge that floods are a thing which can happen and 2) the ability to imagine that things can be big.

But this is actually kinda fun to play with.

There are stories of local floods all over the world, so there must have been a global flood!
There are stories of disease outbreaks all over the world, so there must have been a global epidemic!
There are stories of accidental fires all over the world, so there must have been a global fire!
There are stories of food shortages all over the world, so there must have been a global food shortage!
There are stories of animal stampedes all over the world, so there must have been a global stampede!
There are stories of kings all over the world, so there must have been a king of the whole world!

 

Its no reach at all.

The reach is that you think that because 500 cultures have flood stories they all refer to a single event at a specific time.

I notice you completely ignore the fact that there is no record of a global flood wiping out the early civilizations in Egypt, China, nor India. Civilizations that have a continuous history throughout the "900 years that noah lived" (that's another good one).


MOD EDIT - Rule 3

 

How MANY animals...ballpark...were on the Ark?

 

My personal favorite is really good drugs.

 

MOD EDIT - Rule 3

1) There's plenty of evidence. I've provided a ton of it, MOD EDIT - Rule 3

2) You haven't read any of the 500+ flood stories, even though they are available on the Internet. See?
Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_flood_myths

MOD EDIT - Rule 3

 

I get it...you have no answers for my questions.

BTW, I didn't raise the "scientific accuracy" of Noah's Ark first on this Forum...it was another poster.

Why is you have no problem with him discussing it favorably...but you have a problme with me discussing it unfavorably?