Yeah, it's interesting that making that my default starting position saves me a lot of hassle later when it turns out the government lied about something, or everything. The rest of your post just amounts to ".gov JBTs say .gov JBTs good" which is obviously bullshit. And yes, when half of the trials end in acquittals, I'd call that a dud of a prosecution. If you want to give them extra credit for bullying some poor losers into pleading out prior to trial, go ahead, but I won't.
These were just a bunch of idiots with 0 perspective to get the power in Germany. Maybe they would kill someone, but their plan was a failure at the very beginning. What else expert from Q fans.
The Witmer plot, is not the subject of this thread, but something that you brought up, as an apparent analogy to this. I pointed out that the plan to kidnap and torture/kill Governor Witmer-- despite your treating it like a joke-- was very real, or else the two leaders would not be facing life sentences. It is disturbing, that you can ignore the seriousness of that situation, because of the way that the investigation was handled. But there is NO reason, to believe that this German story, would be a sham-- the odds are not, 50 - 50. It would, rather, be a stupendous twist, if this were all some kind of bogus setup, by the government, and it would be a tremendously risky thing for any high officials, to try to coordinate something so public, which will undoubtedly lead to very closely- watched trials. IOW, there would seem to need be, a very compelling reason, for such a bold gambit. The odds are certainly more likely, that this fringe group was, indeed, planning to try to overthrow Germany's rightfully elected government, as crazy as that sounds. I am more inclined to believe it is these conspiracy theorists, who are acting insane, rather than the government, in a broad conspiracy. That people are being driven, in groups, to such seditious actions, living in two of the world's highest profile, 1st world, Democratically governed countries, should be a striking development. Again, your seeming inclination to dismiss it, as government hijinks, does not seem to me, a normal reaction.
No surprises, maybe they even helped them, because among the conspirators were Russian citizens. You just have to understand one thing, fascist regime in Russia and great part of Russian society not only hate all their neighbors, but they also hate Europe, US and West in general. They will and are doing all to harm, destabilize Western countries, they will help Nazi idiots from Reihsburger, crazy communists or whatever, as long as it will help to destabilize the situation. They will provoke imigration crisis, as it was in 2015. and 2021. They don't even hide this, in their TV Russians openly declare, that they are committing war crimes in Ukraine by destroying Ukraine civil infrastructure, to provoke millions of people to flee to EU. And it will continue till the moment, when Russian fascist regime will collapse. That's why we should give all what is needed to Ukraine. If they would not be stopped in Ukraine, stakes will be only higher in the future. Unfortunately, part of Americans and Europeans do not understand how serious is the situation.
In addition to this delusional story, it should be remembered that all of Europe is growing stronger towards the nationalist extreme right. The main reasons are the economic crisis and the mass illegal immigration of Arab Muslims.
That is not what I'd said: I had, though, connected the perspective of believing that Germany is under some foreign yoke, or that inferior races are to blame for all of Germany's troubles, or that trying to cooperate in both a Europe-wide, as well as in a global way, with the other nations of the world, is such a grievous misstep, that it warrants an armed insurrection, to bring it to a halt, with the same mentality which is anti-immigrant. Look at our own citizens, who are most fiercely opposed to immigration: are they not generally also those who are most against globalization, that is, who subscribe to the starkest "America first" philosophy, and have the least concern, for the conditions of humans, elsewhere? So all I am suggesting is that this is a particular view of the world, uniting the highly-overlapping movements suspicious of, and against, both globalization, as well as the welcoming of immigrants from foreign cultures. Those with these perspectives tend to be the most "nationalistic," and, ironically, are where we are most likely to find that radical minority, who see these threats as so existential, so as to justify an armed insurgency, against the elected government (who they are also most likely to see, as illegitimate).
Germany and Russia are not at war. Russia still wants to carry on commerce with Germany. Perhaps my impression is not realistic, but it seems to me that the expected protocol, when contacted by insurrectionists, from a neighboring country, is to at least make the neighbor aware of that fact, even if you two are not on the best of terms. Now, if you would actually want the revolutionaries to succeed, of course, that is another matter. By comparison, we in fact helped Cuban revolutionaries, in the disastrous Bay of Pigs "invasion." And if we were alerted of the intentions of modern day, Cuban insurgents, I would not expect us to let the Communist regime know about it-- I just didn't think that the Germany - Russia relationship had sunken to such a place, of not just seeing Ukraine, as a point of strong disagreement between them, but to basically view each other, as enemies.
Regardless of our differing perspectives of how involved the FBI was in instigating the Whitmer plot, I'd still like to know what these "insurrectionists" actually did. So far, the one semi-concrete action that has been alleged is that they "had been in contact with Russian officials about the scheme". Some details of that level of contact would be really helpful. Was it some Russian city councilman? or Putin? Were the Russian officials helping in the plot? Offering to send money? Guns? Or was it more of a "hey Uncle Ivan, we're going to overthrow Germany. You want in?" and "Nah, bro, I'm good, but you guys go ahead. Good luck!" sort of contact. I'd also like to know how they became aware of the contact, and how they know it was "about the scheme". Do they have transcripts? Recordings? A confession? Or just a call log to some mid-level bureaucrat's vacation home in Siberia?
You two got me interested in this. It seems that in the Eastern and Central parts of Germany, Nazism has been on the rise for some time. Here is a video from 2007. It's a bit slow (& 16 mins long) but includes some interesting insights. For one, we in America could find consolation that, at least, there seemed at that time to be greater political animosity amongst Germans (though Nationalists/Skin heads/Neo-Nazis were a small minority), than we see here, between our two major Parties. Also, it was interesting to see how much tighter a rein, the police & authorities tried to keep on the nascent movement, than we are accustomed to seeing in the U.S. When I tried looking up the rise of Neo-Nazism in the U.S., all the articles seemed to be recent, from 2018 or later. https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.dw...nder-president-donald-trump-report/a-42688331 This is about a report by the Southern Poverty Law Center, concerning hate groups, which grew, overall, 4% in 2017, bringing their growth to 20%, since 2014. It didn't explain, why that year was chosen, or why it may have been when this growth began. The report noted that "Trump-inspired groups also provoked a backlash that witnessed a rise in black nationalist groups, such as the Nation of Islam." I will let the article explain, why it links the hate groups to then-President Trump: <Snip> "President Trump's first year in office proved to be just as racially divisive as his campaign — but even more consequential," the report said. "President Trump in 2017 reflected what white supremacist groups want to see: a country where racism is sanctioned by the highest office, immigrants are given the boot and Muslims banned." ... The SPLC said neo-Nazi groups "share a hatred for Jews and a love for Adolf Hitler and Nazi Germany," but also discriminate against other groups, including minorities and members of the LGBT community... <End> The article notes some differences, between the different hate groups. For instance, it cited a 22% increase in Neo-Nazi groups, in 2017, from 99 to 121. There were also over 600 White Supremacist groups. Anti-Muslim groups were also on the rise, for their third straight year. Meanwhile, the numbers of the KKK, were on the decline. <Snip> The US also witnessed a rise in anti-Muslim groups for the third consecutive year. In total, hate groups grew by 20 percent since 2014. Trump rose to power on a platform that vowed to ban Muslims from entering the country. KKK on decline Meanwhile, the Ku Klux Klan — a white supremacist group that epitomized the oppression of black Americans — lost support across the country. "The decline is a clear indication that the new generation of white supremacists is rejecting the Klan's hoods and robes for the hipper image of the more loosely organized alt-right movement," said the SPLC. However, the SPLC noted that 2017 marked the first year it included male supremacy groups in its reports, saying the chief aim of the two groups in the report was the subjugation of women. <End>
@HurricaneDitka https://www.dw.com/en/how-dangerous-are-germanys-far-right-reichsbürger/a-64020300 <Snip> How dangerous are Germany's far-right Reichsbürger? Lisa Hänel A group of "Reichsbürger" allegedly spent months preparing for a "Day X," on which they wanted to overthrow the government. In a large-scale raid on Wednesday morning, several suspects were arrested, including ex-soldiers and a former member of the Bundestag. Since November 2021, they had been holding secret meetings and engaged in shooting exercises in preparation for a coup, according to the attorney general. In their plans, the suspects did not shy away from the use of military force or homicide. "The sheer number of arrests and searches has shocked me," sociologist Timo Reinfrank, executive director of the Amadeu Antonio Foundation told DW. The foundation is one of Germany's leading NGOs working against right-wing extremism, racism, and antisemitism. "A real coup d'état can hardly succeed in Germany, as the state order and the constitution are too solid for that, but these people believe it is possible. That shows how caught up they are in their delusion." But attacks like the one on the Capitol in Washington, D.C., on January 6, 2021, would also be possible in Germany, Reinfrank fears. What does the movement believe? Reichsbürger reject the German legal system and the country's parliamentarism, and most of them propagate the re-establishment of the German empire founded in 1871. They also believe that the victorious Western Allies of World War II, who defeated Nazi Germany, still secretly rule the country. In recent years, the growing number of Reichsbürger has alarmed German security authorities. In its June 2022 report, the domestic intelligence service estimated that around 21,000 people belong to this scene — and their number is rising. ... In recent years, a number of serious crimes have been attributed to Reichsbürger. Several have stood trial for murder or attempted murder. The crimes registered by the domestic intelligence service rose sharply between 2020 and 2021. Reinfrank said that militancy is already rooted in the Reichsbürgers' ideology. "Because Reichsbürger do not recognize the constitution and the legitimacy of the security authorities, their ideology legitimizes them to act with violence." "These are not people who commit random attacks. They want to specifically attack the basic state order, like elected local politicians," Reinfrank explained. The past three years of protests against the COVID-19 restrictions led to radicalization and an increase in the number of supporters of Reichsbürger ideology... "The scene has become radicalized. People are becoming more receptive to the core idea of the Reichsbürger, that Germany is not free and the elected government is not sovereign," Reinfrank said. <End> One can't help but wonder if we are headed in this same direction.
I doubt there is much to this beyond some drunk ranting in a bar. Governments love to entrap drunk loud mouths then pretend anything would ever come of it.
Regardless of whether that is generally true, of "governments," if you read the snips from the article just before your post, the German spokesperson is alleging that this group has been planning and preparing for this, with secret meetings, and shooting exercises, for the last year (since Nov. 2021). It has also been alleged that they had contacted the Russian government, so they must clearly have been under surveillance. In fact, this particular group, has had German authorities concerned, for some time. So, despite how accurate your random guesses, made when you are mostly in the dark about facts, may normally be, it seems that this might be one of those rare instances, when you're wrong.
What the heck is going on?-- yesterday Peru's President tried to disolve the legislature, & take unilateral control of the government! But Peru showed us, how something like that should be handled: they impeached him right there & then! And after the vote, drove him straight to a police station, where he was charged with rebellion, and arrested. <Snip> LIMA, Peru (AP) — The president of Peru was ousted by Congress and arrested on a charge of rebellion Wednesday after he sought to dissolve the legislative body and take unilateral control of the government, triggering a grave constitutional crisis. Vice President Dina Boluarte replaced Pedro Castillo and became the first female leader in the history of the republic after hours of wrangling between the legislature and the departing president, who had tried to prevent an impeachment vote. Boluarte, a 60--year-old lawyer, called for a political truce and the installation of a national unity government. “What I ask for is a space, a time to rescue the country,” she said. Lawmakers voted 101-6 with 10 abstentions to remove Castillo from office for reasons of “permanent moral incapacity.” He left the presidential palace in an automobile that carried him through Lima’s historic downtown. He entered a police station and hours later federal prosecutors announced that Castillo had been arrested on the rebellion charge for allegedly violating constitutional order. Witnesses saw some small-scale clashing between police and some protesters who had gathered near the station. <End>
The RW fascist movement is world wide, the radicalization is worldwide. Sadly, they seemed to have gained great momentum and reach under the Obama years.
I think you are jumping the gun, and filling in blanks that you would like to see. Since migrants weren't mentioned in the article, but you couldn't help but assume that was an issue, your view of this isn't really about Germany, it's about the US, which is a difficulty when tying to interpret foreign stories; you assume it's all about us. Why don't we wait and see if these monarchists wanted to install Barron Trump as Holy Roman Emperor and make Lauren Boebert his queen.
I wonder what you think your comment, that any of these things has anything to do with the, until recently, entertainer, Volodymyr Zelensky, tells anyone with a clue, about your opinion. My only question, is how much does Zelensky's being Jewish, enter into your calculus? Esau said: ↑ One of the oldest anti black racist tropes from the MSM who incidentally is run by Jewish folk (according to ye) So, is it any wonder we have blatant racism coming out of MSM?
This is what is stated in ALL the media reports, or any article about the Reichsbürger movement, I have seen. But I guess your not buying it, without having any argument as to why this seems unlikely, to your own mind, should be considered equally valid as reports from people in Germany, who have actually been following the phenomenon?
Your reply shows that you are holding fast to your original misunderstanding, despite my quite clear explaining of your mistake-- to which, this was your reply. As I know long explanations "bore" you, and since I don't know how I could make any clearer, that your thinking that I am saying this story is "about the U.S." is an utterly fallacious misinterpretation, I guess we will just have to leave it at that: you don't understand what I've said.
This is another example of how close we always come to the end of our representative government, here and around the world.
The SPLC is nakedly partisan. They're trying to blame left-wing hate groups on Trump. It's absurd, but in case you find that argument plausible, then why couldn't right-wing hate groups be blamed on Democrats, as a "backlash"?
This is absolutely HILARIOUS! Twenty-five people and a few allies were going to topple the whole damned German government...?! The German Bundespolizei should have just sat back and let this big 'coup' take place -- it would have been the funniest, most half-assed thing to happen in Germany since Adolf Hitler and his buddies came boiling up out of a beer joint in Munich and hit the streets in their own attempt to overthrow the government. It was called "The Beer Hall Putsch": https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beer_Hall_Putsch . "They'd take me seriously if I had a hat like THAT...!"
