It sounds like you're using your friend's mother's experience to validate your pre-conceived political views. Why don't you tell him that what you took away from him sharing the truth about his conception with you, was that pregnant rape victims should be forced to carry their assailants babies? Let me know how he reacts. Hear that, rape victims? Life is hard! It's hard for all of us, so don't complain, just carry your rapist's child to term! Hear that, rape victims? You're being weak by getting an abortion! Women are not baby machines. Women have no responsibility to use their uterus to "make the world a better place." You have no right to expect anything from a woman's uterus. Get a grip.
From your replies I think that, (and you might not like my conclusions) Your position is that abortion should not be legal. This position by your own admission makes the decision to deny an abortion to a rape victim a difficult one to explore. You seek to reconcile your choice to refuse a rape victim an abortion with a desire not to hurt the rape victim further. By concentrating on how the rape victim copes and what choices she makes post rape you are transferring any responsibility for the pain she may endure away from the rapist and away from your decision to deny her an abortion. My position is that the rape victim alone should make the choice about an abortion, not you and not I. She certainly should be offered advice from independent professional counsellors as well as those she trusts. Ultimately the choice for an abortion should be hers and those who love her will not judge, but will stand by her Those who seek to restrict the choices of others, must accept the consequences of their actions and not try to abdicate responsibility for their decisions.
Excellent post. There are some in here who I hope read the best and most pertinent line : """By concentrating on how the rape victim copes and what choices she makes post rape you are transferring any responsibility for the pain she may endure away from the rapist and away from your decision to deny her an abortion."""
In lalalidemocrateuginistland where we have to have a yes means yes except when she later decided that yes meant no after she signed the online release form, we are all the byproduct of rape. My grandmother was a rape baby and I know others who were rape babies. I doubt there is a person alive today who doesn't have rape and/or incest in their family tree. If the law only allowed the limited extreme situation abortions, this would not be a political issue. at the end of the day, they use these things as an emotional argument to rationalize the abortions of women who are too inconvenienced by pregnancy who are too inconvenienced by needing to use birth control under the guise that these women are the responsible ones in having the abortion while ignoring that they wouldn't have become pregnant if they were the responsible ones, and then, in the process, convince poor people, particularly poorly educated blacks and hispanics, that aborting their unborn child is the only "responsible" choice.
The above is nothing more than you opinion, you have nothing to back up that "People who choose negative meanings will believe themselves to be victims and will trap themselves in downward spirals of self-pity and self-destruction." .. I suggest you read the following; http://www.secularwoman.org/do_not_regret_my_abortion http://she-had-an-abortion.tumblr.com/ http://www.thanksabortion.com/abortion-did-change-me-and-it-changed-me-for-the-better/ Now the chances are you will come back with some sort of comment alluding to how selfish these women are .. but that will be just a cop out as usual. Only in your imagination, what you want to do is gloss over is the simple fact that this woman had a choice, she made a choice that was best for her .. had you pro-lifers had their way she would not have been able to make that choice at all.
Would you allow abortion for rape? Why? A fetus resulting from rape is no different, no less of a "baby" than any other fetus. Please explain how pregnancy-- 9 months of pregnancy at the risk of the woman's health and life; permanent body damage; the trauma of childbirth; major lifestyle changes, i.e., loss of employment, interrupted education, and changed personal relationships; months of recovery; the decision of giving the baby away or keeping it to raise--can be described as an "inconvenience"? Honestly? Legal abortion does not require rationalization. Banning it forces a woman to use her body against her will, the same as rape and slavery does. Pro-choicers don't attempt to convince anyone what their choice should be, that is what "pro-lifers" do.
No, I understood the point you were trying to make perfectly, but your point hinges on the common and purposeful misconception that pro-choicers just don't care about unborn children. I know you'll find this hard to believe but being pro-choice does not mean you cheer when a woman has an abortion. Absolutely, because I'm telling you to get your nose out of someone else's personal business. If you want to call it preachy for me to say back off and let the woman make decisions, since it's you know, her body and her life, then I suppose you can slap a white neckband on me and start calling me Father. But then I suppose you'll have to start doing that for ALL the folks who talk on this forum about how the government shouldn't be making decisions for you. But I know that the irony of that situation is lost on many a pro-lifer.
And one wrong shouldn't make a whole passel of wrongs....and your wrong might be someone else's right.....
Exactly. You don't compound the inherent wrongness of rape with the inherent wrongness of forcing women to bow down to your desires for their reproductive systems. Hit the nail on the head you did.
I remember hearing in the news many years ago about a deranged serial rapist who kidnapped a woman and forced her to "breed" with him. He kept her chained to a bed in a windowless cement block room in a very remote location where no one ever went. When they finally found and rescued her she was already four months pregnant. Now... What if she had been six months pregnant? Would it be okay to abort then?? Do we just abort a child in the womb (even when it has grown into a real human being, no doubt about it) just because the child was a product of rape?
Never. There is no automatic way of handling it at all. You abort the child in the womb if and only if that is the wish of the mother.
you speak as if this is a certain outcome....nope...potential only...if all conditions are perfect...nothing inevitable about it. Since most folks encounter a situation when egg meets sperm, this is fairly common....as is the potential of a child. Now, are you advocating complete celibacy? that would eliminate the issue completely... Only if using your 'logic' find out the number of miscarriages that have occurred since 2006 & get back to me about how many similar services have taken place...'specially by those who have no axe to grind on the subject. If you want to make it illegal, since you seem think it is a baby at this point, then you will naturally support requiring people to have funerals in the future. Logic...its a bummer...how many more laws governing personal choices do you plan on implementing? I do, until I encounter a person who thinks meeting one nice person who was the product of rape means that every woman who is raped should have that decision taken out of her hands. Sorry if my views differ but I have actual experience with reproductive issues when abortion was illegal. Mine included being forced to carry 1 dead 8 month fetus for a month until labor began naturally and carrying one mass of decaying cells for 5 months because of a positive pregnancy test. I KNOW the horrors of having government interfering in a woman's womb...first hand.....how 'bout you? Shall we apply your same logic to gun control the 'war on Christmas'? I'm always amazed at cons who defend the 'rights' they approve of, and yet, forget the complete concept on others. Could we try for a little consistency? Slavery? you really are grasping at straws
He kept her from getting an abortion the only way to keep women from getting an abortion and what Anti-Choicers prescribe. Yes, she should be allowed an abortion if she wishes .
You don't. Of course not. It just means that you simply do not recognize any value in the life that is being killed. Hence the above. It's not someone else's personal business when that person is taking another person's life. To say that it is means that you need to get your nose out of anyone's choice to kill anyone for any reason. Which you know you don't support. Thus the fact that you can't play by your own rules just shows that you don't really even believe in what you're saying here. That's ego, not reason. *sigh* Don't make me do this. You're too smart to have to be shown the obvious: Uh, I think you'll find very few people who disagree with the government's decisions to protect its citizens from being killed for convenience by their fellow citizens. If you'd like to test this out for yourself, feel free to take a poll and see how many people oppose anti-homicide laws. You are not as stupid as you are pretending to be here. Just drop the act and be honest with yourself.
If that woman's body isn't hers whose is it? Yours? Who owns her? Has she been bought and sold like a slave so her body isn't hers? Is it YOURS? Does it belong to the Conquering Male who impregnated her? NO, it's HERS. If a fetus is a person it has no right to use another person's body, no right to cause harm to another person, and the person it is harming has every right to stop the harm. Why do you want this "person" to have super rights over others?
You still don't get it. You don't understand what the power of choice truly is. You only understand it from a low-level consciousness position of pitting one person's rights against another's. You have no concept of choosing meaning. You still think meaning is something that's being dictated to you from the outside. I sincerely hope you're able to see past that some day and recognize all the true power that you've been hiding from yourself. For if you don't, you'll waste your entire life feeling like the world's (*)(*)(*)(*)(*). And you'll never even realize that you chose that entire ride, yourself.
I could answer every one of your questions here, but what good would it do? I've answered most of them a thousand times already. It's not that you can't understand the answers. It's that your emotions forbid you from accepting them. I don't know what made you the way that you are, and I'm not trying to make you feel bad here. But your emotions have thoroughly hijacked your reasoning ability and that prevents you from being able to have a productive discussion with anyone on this subject. Whatever baggage you have from your past that riles you up so much about this issue, I would encourage you to seek out someone to talk to about it. Process it. Work through it and move past it. Don't let it own you. Again, that is the true power of choice. Use that power to make a choice that will help you in the long run instead of hurting you by keeping you stuck where you are. Choose to define your own future regardless of your past. Choose not to be a victim. Choose to take your life back and be your own person. Again, I wish you the best. Cheers.
OK, here's the translation of that load of pseudo-psychologists horsepuckey: I can't answer those INCONVENIENT questions. Unifier:"""I could answer every one of your questions here, but what good would it do?"" If that isn't the lamest excuse followed by a long load of BS when you COULD'VE JUST ANSWERED a simple question: Whose body is it if it isn't hers? You claimed in your post that her body wasn't hers....so, oh wise one, whose is it? If it's not HER choice whose is it? WHO locks her up and forces her to give birth? WHO? If it's murder WHO accuses her? How do they accuse her? Do you want her given the death penalty if she "murders" in a state that has the death penalty ?? Answer the questions. What good would it do? Maybe, just maybe, you would see how ridiculous your claims and pronouncements are.... Also here's the other questions you ran and hid from:If a fetus is a person it has no right to use another person's body, no right to cause harm to another person, and the person it is harming has every right to stop the harm. Why do you want this "person" to have super rights over others?
Okay, I've tried very hard to be nice to you throughout this thread, but I'm all out of cheeks to turn. It's said that kindness has no enemy, but you're certainly trying your hardest to disprove that here. Lol! So this will be the last post of yours I respond to. Have a nice evening.
So why do you post ? To pontificate? Preach YOUR rules? You make big majestic statements but when questioned on them you run ..... That means you have no argument, no basis for all your lies about abortion...you have nothing....and THAT is why you're running away.... I asked simple straightforward questions based on what you posted......your inability to answer them means your premise, your opinion, fails...
sigh, still banging that broken drum of consent to sex = consent to pregnancy I see, shame it is soundless with no relevance.
