Allowing Russia to attack our democracy is NOT diplomacy. Denying that we're BEING attacked is not diplomacy. Refusing to defend American democracy is not diplomacy. It might be nice for Russia to point toward China instead of Europe and the ME, but Russia sees itself as having unfinished business in Europe, and European countries are our allies. Beyond that, we now know for a fact that Trump has been lying to us on the topic of Russia's attack on our democracy even from before he was sworn in. Sorry. This is NOT acceptable.
Obama allowed Russia to attack our Democracy not Trump. Denying the attack is diplomatic when trying to reconcile with a belligerent power. Has the CIA and military stopped trying to defend the USA from cyber attacks on Trumps order? Apparently the Europeans have enough faith in Russia's benevolence to get a large portions of their fuel for winters from them. So I do not see how they are at odds. In fact we have been told that a war between the EU and Russia is absurd. Trump lies all the time but how was he supposed to know that the Russians were attacking our election process when only the Obama administration for a fact knew? He had no access to that Intel until after the election.
Yes, that's the standard and profoundly stupid charge. The catch is that there was no time to resolve the problem of Russian interference, and had he tried it would have been perceived as a massively unacceptable intrusion in the election process. We do not like it when a president uses the power of the executive branch to affect an election. Trump had TWO YEARS. His approach was to lie throughout that period, claiming it didn't even exist. That, too, is NOT acceptable.
Our intel agencies are staffed by permanent employees. Only the very top of these agencies change. So, our intel agencies had plenty of employees hired during past administrations - Clinton, Bush, Obama. And, those people were not necessarily hired by the top officials that tend to be presidential appointees. So, Trump had TWO YEARS of our intel agencies telling him that Russia had attacked us during the 2016 election and that they were continuing to do so. Claiming Trump didn't know or couldn't have known is just too ridiculous for words. He was told. He was shown the evidence. And, that took place even before he was sworn into office.
No you said "Beyond that, we now know for a fact that Trump has been lying to us on the topic of Russia's attack on our democracy even from before he was sworn in." That is the part I disagree with, the rest of your statement above is correct.
He was given in depth security briefings before he was sworn in where this topic was covered in full, with Trump being shown the evidence. So, you are claiming that he made no mention of the absence of foreign attack on our democracy between the time of that briefing and his being sworn in. I'm seriously doubting that.
I was, friend. I was. I was just adding to your statement to the poster you were responding to. Sorry for the misunderstanding. Btw, my boy almost died in Iraq. So, as a parent, I’ve been there, done that. Most of these people who keep trying to push us towards war would not go themselves, much less give up a son for their damn war.
You know I am at work and did not check past articles on this. After reviewing I retract my statement on that.
Yet, we still have Bolton! I'm with you on the war front. We need to be FAR more circumspect. Our military is outstanding, but it is not some sort of full solution to horrendous government.
Well, maybe they're just noticing that at least half the NATO nations have territory to the East of the Eastern border of Germany.
Russia has its sphere of influence as do we. Much of Eastern Europe is Orthodox (as for instance Montenegro) and is much more aligned with Russian culture than Western culture. What gives us the right to stage a coup in Ukraine so as to swallow Ukraine into NATO? Why should they give up on their legitimate interests?
I certainly did NOT say they should surrender their interests. I'm saying they will NOT surrender. And, we need to proceed on that assumption, not on the assumption that Putin will give up his interests if only we bend over far enough and often enough.
Yes. Putin will not give up his interests and we should stop trying to impede his interests. That is not bending over, in my book. We have no interest in Ukraine except to try and crush Russia so Global Capitalism can dominate its resources and markets. Perhaps Putin will stop meddling in our elections if we stop meddling in his and destabilizing his neighbors. Worth a try, don't you think?
Why should we back away from our interests in order to allow Putin to gain his interests??? Why the HELL would Russian stop meddling in our elections when our response is no more than bending over? US intel has gotten documentation from the Russian operative Maria Butina that seem to imply that Russia wanted Trump to get a different Sec State than Mitt Romney. While not being yet proven, are you suggesting we should be happy bending over that far? I WANT TO KNOW: Just how far should Trump go to allow Putin to affect decisions America makes?
What interest do we have in Ukraine? What interest do we have in Montenegro? What interest do we have in Syria? About as far as any other nation with which we hope to maintain good relations.
Our interests are well represented by the charters of the UN and NATO. As such, they are also the shared interests of the vast majority of countries.
You must have thought you were responding to some other post. I asked "What interest do we have in Ukraine? What interest do we have in Montenegro? What interest do we have in Syria?
The UN and NATO have a lot to say about how nations relate to each other. We care a LOT about that, whether it is Montenegro, Ukraine, Syria or ANY other country. The point is, we might not give a crap about Ukraine, but we do care about how countries expand and draw borders. We do care about free trade. We do care about democracy, as we believe that the more democracy in this world the better. Etc.
We didn't mind staging a coup in the Ukraine to enlarge the borders of NATO. (I keep bringing this up and you and all the other Russophobes don't ever mention it. It would seem to have a large bearing on US/Russia relations.) And we didn't care so much about Turkey carving up Cyprus. These "principals" you would have us apply only seem to have force when they are in our interest. Stop hiding behind principal and show me the underlying interest.
OK, I'm going to back up and just point out that this thread is about Russia's attack on our democracy. I don't see anything about Ukraine that would justify the US ignoring that attack. Whatever the laundry list of complaints is, the US president has an absolute responsibility to defend America. Period. We can discuss Ukraine, NATO, the UN, and the UN on some other thread. The issue here is that Russia attacked America and for 2 years now we have done NOTHING about it. In fact, Trump has consistently denied that it ever even took place even though he was informed of the attack before he was even sworn in. Why is this not treason?
