Is it moral for God to punish us?

But...I see no rational reason to believe any of these "Gods" are more likely than any other. All of them were created by humans (No God can write a book) and each one has dominion over some specific part of reality....it's just this version you follow has dominion over Humans apparently.

 

Actually the one I worship has dominion over the entire universe.

I see no rational reason to believe the universe popped out of nothingness.

 

Is it more rational to believe a "God" thunk everything into existence...or more rational to admit you simply do not know?

At his point we have enough data to speculate on physical possibilities and are continuously doing so, some of these possible "Creation Events" can be tested and shown as real things we can observe. The versions speculated on with the various Gods cannot be in any way evaluated beyond reading texts obviously thought of by ancient man. It would seem you and I have different interpretations of the term "Rational".

 

Well, I don't see how you can observe something coming out of nothing. It is illogical to think that you can.

You assume that you have to read these texts to believe in God. Religious texts are God's revelation. You don't need them to know God exists.

Lastly, believing in God is experiencing God. Thus, one's experiences continuously reinforces his belief. The agnostic view is not backed by such experience.

 

Then, why is the belief in Zeus or Thor any different than belief in Allah? As far as observing a universe coming from nothing, a singularity is not nothing and even that possibility is currently being worked on....You did not comment on the lack of ANYTHING pointing to God making is all, why is that?

Perhaps because there in nothing to comment on beyond "God did it"?

 

I told you, Zeus is an imperfect creation. Allah (God) is the perfect and eternal Creator of everything. Zeus is clearly not worthy of worship, nor is he the reason behind everything.

Where did the singularity come from? Did it pop out of nothingness? If something can't come from nothing, then something must have always been eternal.

You can't say the singularity is eternal, because it clearly ceased to be a singularity. Our only alternative of an eternal thing is God, the entity that is the causation for everything.

 

Nor did I, in fact I'm pretty sure I made it clear we do not know...thing is, as I mentioned that is the rational answer. I note you avoid answering my questions (expected) and instead ask more of me, which I have answered for you upon request. As it seems clear this is going to be the direction and I have experienced much the same every time I discuss these things with the devout....I believe we are done here.

Thanks, have a good day.

 

We don't know??? Dude, it ceased to be a singularity and started expanding! What do you mean "we don't know?"

 

The point is the approach to the Holy Texts. Personally I see a lot of allegories and metaphors ... This said, I would underline something about God: there is who expects God to be a kind of perfect rational machine. Eh ... irrationality is part of human nature and since God says He is similar to us ... He is also irrational. He's not a machine, He's a person.

 

The word ORBIT is loosely translated in the case to mean crossing overhead.

There is NOTHING in the Koran, Bible or Tanakh that is in anyway correct about Celestial Mechanics or Quantum Evolution.

AboveAlpha

 

If God is going to be giving out punishments, you'd think he would be giving them to the people who break his rules. But that is not so. God dishes out punishments to everyone. He even dishes them out to babies too young to even walk or talk. In order to earn a "punishment", there must be a rule of some kind that was broken. I suppose we could always throw out the "well God has a plan", the old "He needed that soul in heaven", or the classic "The lord works in mysterious ways", but those things are all phrases people tell themselves to cover up the seemingly arbitrary nature of life. We don't know that there is an afterlife, or that any of our loved ones have ever reached it. What we do know is that there is a reality that we currently live in, and we can know what happens here. We can know when terrible things happen to those who either have not or are simply unable to break God's rules to earn the punishments. And we can see that these are not punishments, not really, they are simply the effects of a vast and inconceivably large network of cause and effect(which since we can't perceive it without perceiving everything that happens and has ever happened, we've decided to call it "luck" or "fate") that does not require a God or gods in order to produce what we see and have seen.

If there is a God, these are not punishments it's giving out, they are arbitrary acts of cruelty. But in turn, if the bad is caused by God, so too would the good. So this God would be capable of great good, but also terrible evil.

Sounds a lot like humanity to me, not God.

 

That's just it.

All those books were written without a doubt by MAN.

A GOD would not be so petty.

AboveAlpha

 

Well, in a hypothetical where we're already disregarding traditional views on morality, it's not inconceivable that the semantic bounds of justice are shaky too.

My points are mostly in terms of hypotheticals, but your question was in terms of what I believe. I wasn't sure if you'd misunderstood my points, or actively disregarding my points, or making some point of your own, the logic behind which I didn't yet understand.

 

actually, according to quantum physics, particles pop into existence from nothingness all the time.

 

Your question is really about free will. The reason religion created a God who judged us is because man makes choices and if God is to survive these choices, he must either be uninterested or engaged to survive. The judgement of God is an effective tool for arguing that God exists in this sea of pain, death, misery, poverty and barbarity. History shows us how cruel man can be, there is no room for God as a player in this play unless he can survive scrutiny. The idea of free will, the story of the garden or Prometheus absolves the Gods from responsibility. It is a convenient ruse.

 

Lol, that's because holy book aren't science books.

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No, they don't. This entire universe is SOMETHING, so they pop out of something, not nothing.

 

actually, it's entirely possible. Science has shown that space-time can self-populate out of nothing, and that once space-time is established, a singularity can self-populate as well.

So you can start with a situation where not even space or time exist. And space-time can self-populate into existence, followed by particles of matter self-populating into existence.

So yea - something can come from nothing.

 

Show me the science that says this.

 

http://www.bbc.com/earth/story/20141106-why-does-anything-exist-at-all

 

A vacuum is not a void/nothingness.

 

By void / nothingness - mean no particles, no energy, no space, and no time.
Science has shown that from such a state, space-time can spontaneously form, and then from the vacuum of space time, particles can spontaneously come into existence.

In other words, if you start with a void/nothingness, a space-time vacuum can spontaneously form, and from that vacuum, particles can form as well.

 

There is no evidence of this whatsoever.

 

of course there is - its called quantum physics. Just cause you dont understand the evidence doesnt mean the evidence doesnt exist.

 

Lol, QP has not proven that energy pops out of absolute nothingness.

Do you know the ramifications of absolute nothingness?

 

My point being that your previous post used the word orbit....but that's not really what it translates to in the Koran.

My Arabic is rusty but my Farsi is better.

AboveAlpha