Jihad vs Crusades

So now, history is insane bigotry. I fear if you do not understand history, you are bound to repeat it. If you seem to find history so repugnant, and you appear to admit you don't even know much of it, then I suggest you never read any.

 

It seems that you are confusing a perhaps justified concern for the possible future of non-Muslims in a potentially Muslim-dominated future society with bigotry.

That appears to me to be a monstrous perversion of the point of this thread.

Also, not everyone thinks of Muslims as being "black people", as do some in this board, from what I have seen in other threads. When I think of Muslims, white Arabs come to mind. It is the tenets and goals of the Muslim religion that are of concern, not racial considerations.

Where does the comment of killing millions of children fit in? Not millions so far, but the ISIS crew has killed many already. No one in this thread has said that should be done to protect American freedoms and culture.

The negative comments against the line of reasoning of the OP in this thread seem irrational and illogically biased to me. It almost makes me wonder if the US has crafted some sort of devil's bargain to sell its soul for oil. Secret political deals of ideological capitulation? Now, THAT is something that would be truly outrageous and sickening. It would mean traitors at the highest levels.

 

This thread is a flat out demonization of muslims. It may not actually call for their annihilation right out, not yet. The Nazis were calling for the Jews to be deported to Madagascar until 1941. The major thrust remains that Muslims are inherently evil, a human vermin that menaces us just by existing. The only logical thing to do if one accepts this is genocide. Genocide includes men, women and children, and in this case that would be several tens of millions of children.

This is Naziism, not comparable to, but the actual ideology itself. Naziism's central belief and tenet is that humanity has enemies and the enemies must be destroyed. Jews, Muslims, Gypsies, whoever is convenient, it doesn't matter. The Nazi is a, above all else, a coward. Their entire politics and, indeed, their entire lives are based on an irrational fear of people who have done them no harm and have no intention to, people who are just trying to live their lives not plotting to murder them in their beds, people whose only crime is that they are not Nazis.

And the true depravity here is that the Nazi doesn't care if he is right or wrong in regard to his enemy. The idea that humanity is constantly at war with itself, that there are groups of humans born inherently malicious, is an absurdity and a lie and the Nazi knows it as well as anyone, it's only real purpose to give the Nazi power

If you accept that premise you are being used by evil men for evil ends. I will leave you with Cromwell's famous quote,

"I beseech you, in the bowels of Christ, think it possible that you may be mistaken."

 

Not as much as I should nor as much as I wanted to, that is true. It was sufficient to make it my major in college.

In any case it doesn't matter here. I can recognize propaganda and possibly you cannot. If you're reading and accepting lots more errant nonsense than me that means you are wasting your time misinforming yourself, not that you are right.

 

It is not the terrorists that are important, it is the extremists that personally do not harm anyone but have extremist views, and thus enable terrorism to thrive. These extremists are much more numerous, hundreds of millions of them.

The fact that you lump these very different groups together speaks volumes about your ignorance of the situation. Muslim religious fanatics are a superset of muslim terrorists.

 

So, easily proven history is now propaganda eh? You can look any of this up but it might be counter to your bias supporting Jihad.

 

In your delusional world, maybe. I think it runs more counter to my bias in favor of common sense. Then again, I'm not a conservative. I don't spend my entire day justifying my prejudices and looking for yet more reasons to hate people.

 

So you think ignoring history is 'common sense'? Is it that you can only read history if you are a conservative? Go figure. BTW, who mentioned hate except you. You seem to be inspired more by partisanship than common sense.

FYI - I don't hate anybody but like a rabid dog, ISIS and their like need to be put down.

 

Some who call themselves conservatives disagree.

 

No, some argue with you because you ignore the basic reason why the minority are terrorists.

 

In that FYI we agree, along with the vast, vast majority of Muslims, both worldwide and especially in the area. They were discussing this on television last night. The natives in the area have been increasingly overcoming their fear of ISIS to fight against them and the tide seems to be turning, yet ISIS is recruiting more and more. The one thing there seemed agreement on is that the solution cannot be entirely military. ISIS seems a particularly heartless enemy, but we cannot let this blind us to the fact that we must win the hearts and minds of the people there, not just kill them all.

 

Well, it is getting to the point that they cannot ignore them or they may end up dead. Most people, Muslim or otherwise just want to live in peace and be left alone.

 

I predicted you would not be able to comprehend, so I added in ( IE the terrorists ) to help you understand who I was talking about, but you still did not get it

.

 

How about the command that Muslims must emulate the life of Muhammad, who, in his Medina phase, killed Jews and non-Muslims like nobody's business...for Allah?

In the name of Allah?

Does the cry, 'Allahu Akbar' ring a bell?

Or do you need a citation for it???



- - - Updated - - -

 

What about learning about the people who hate YOU?

Such silliness.

 

al-Azhar University - Encyclopaedia Britannica
www.britannica.com/.../al-Azhar-University
Encyclopaedia Britannica
al-Azhar University, Arabic Jāmiʿat al-Azhar, chief centre of Islamic and Arabic learning in the world, centred on the mosque of that name in the medieval ...

???

 

Everyone posting on this board could be mistaken about everything they've ever written, and most of us realize that.

The purpose of discussion is to examine thoughts, ideas, feelings and facts and, I believe, to clarify those and come to a better perception of reality.

I don't know why you keep bringing up Hitler and the Holocaust in reference to comments that the US may need to take steps to preserve its way of life and culture, and that some limitation on Muslim immigrant numbers may be necessary.

Are you projecting into a time in the future when Muslims in the US have begun to forcibly impose their values on the rest of us?

The US has some history of dealing with minorities that seek to gain sway over everyone else. We resist it, but that does not make us homicidal maniacs as you seem to suggest.

I also have problems understanding why so many on here believe this is just a "conservative" concern. Although multiculturalism at its most undiluted has been shown to cause problems in the larger society, progressives in general seem to me to continue to favor it. By its own ideology, a society controlled by Muslims does not seem to, in which all are seen as equals, at all. The progressives on here, it would seem to me, need to be addressIng this concern as well, not trying to demonize the discussion out of existence.

 

The Quran like the Bible if taken literally can be used to justify just about any behavior good or bad. On top of that the Quran like the Bible is subjective and wide open to interpretation. I argue that good people will find peace, love and compassion while the nefarious will find justification for harmful action to others.

Do you believe your interpretation of the Quran typifies the interpretation of all who read it? I believe that your interpretation is only one in a sea of a billion+ interpretations. Do you argue absolutes? I argue that theology is the realm of subjective interpretation.

 

The major difference between the Bible and the Koran is that Jesus preached peace and turn the other cheek in the New Testament which is what Christians follow whereas in the Koran, Mohammad is the perfect man and the one to emulate. His early actions were peaceful until he had power where his later actions were violent. A Muslim can follow the earlier Koran and be correct or the later Koran and be correct. There is no contradiction. This is one of the reasons you don't find a unanimous outrage in Islamic communities and why Muslims from other countries join ISIS. Another issue is that it is OK to lie to a non-believer if it advances Islamic causes which makes some even question any outrage.

 

Perhaps you and I know different Christians as the above is the ideal but by my measure many miss the mark. In my experience the more tolerant Christians adhere more to the NT, while the more judgmental Christians adhere to the OT... just my opinion though. Not all Christians are as you explain above... not by a long shot.

An interesting opinion but I again argue that religion in general is subjective and wide open to interpretation. To assume to know how over 1 billion people interpret the Quran is illogical. To judge the many by the actions of the few is biased. If all 1.6 billion practitioners of Islam were terrorists or supported terrorism we would all be screwed.

 

Wow. Talk about hateful...this post is about as bad as it gets. Frankly....I'm waiting for your version of what really happened, backed up with some credible facts. I'm sure since you are so outraged.....you won't have a problem laying it out.

 

I stand by my comment. The guy in that video is pure hatred, through and through.

I can't really respond to a broad range "what really happened" question - whole libraries have tried that.

But, I'll attempt to respond to questions that COULD be answered in a thread!

 

The Christian religion was interpreted early by the Church, a virtual political organization, and most people did not read the Bible (did not even have access) but listened to Church leaders. Much the same is done today with the Koran. Many of the fanatic Muslims memorize the Koran but often do not understand it and rely on Imam's to interpret, in fact they are required to, much like the early Church.

Muslims are much like Christians and Jews worldwide in that some are orthodox and some are far from it with many varying degrees in between. One cannot judge a Muslim by what ISIS does any more than one can judge a Christian by what Westboro Baptist church does.

That said, there are problems with Islam that other religions do not have. Like Winston Churchill said, "Individual Muslims may show splendid qualities, but the influence of the religion paralyses the social development of those who follow it. No stronger retrograde force exists in the world." You can see this in Gaza where following Islam has kept Muslims in frightful conditions. When Israel abandoned Gaza, they left their advanced greenhouses behind in great condition to only see Gazan's destroy them. Islam is an excuse for failure as it is willed by God if failure is experienced. Jihad, as seen today by ISIS, is not counter to the Koran.

This effort by ISIS is not something new. This has been fomenting for 40 years in my memory. The idea of creating a Caliphate is not something new in Islam and in fact is part and parcel of it. Islam's early years are years of conquest by succeeding leaders. It has been on the back burner due to disparity in power but once power was restored, as seen by oil money and access to weapons, it rose again.

Muslims I know are not anything like ISIS and will never be. The ones I know have become American citizens because they realize that in American, you can achieve your goals with hard work and determination, something that is not even a possibility in oppressive theocratic regimes like Iran unless you are connected.

 

So what is your point as I am not sure we are off by that much as there is some truth to the above. I argue that the minority does not represent the majority which by my interpretation of the above you agree with. Am I off in my interpretation of your words?

 

The real problem is that the minority represents Islam as much as the majority which I call an inherent problem with Islam that does not exist with the Bible, New Testament, and Christians, or any other religion for that matter. That is why this will never go away. If ISIS were to be decimated tomorrow, something similar will arise again based on Islam.

To understand the attraction to Islam is to understand human nature. Much like government is prone to more and more control because the populace loves security over freedom, Islam represents that control and security but freedom suffers. Why else would you find women that defend oppression of women according to our Western ideology?