Part 38 of Post Your Tough Questions Regarding Christianity

Is it true that Christians in America believe that Jesus' Kingdom will be established on Earth as soon as every elected office in America is held by Bible Thumping Republicans?

 

Have you ever read The Slave Bible? It deleted about 90% of the Old Testament and about 50% of the New Testament. https://www.museumofthebible.org/exhibits/slave-bible
https://www.npr.org/2018/12/09/6749...tted-key-passages-that-could-incite-rebellion

 

The Babylonians did not write the bible.
And they didn't know anything about Canaanite culture ca 2000 BC.
The Babylonian exiles did write SOME of the bible, but their writing
is then post-dated (you can't win, can you?) So Daniel was written
after the Greeks. Why??!!!! Because Daniel mentions the Greeks.
That's "proof" - but Daniel mentioned the Romans "cutting off" the
Messiah and destroying Israel, but that part isn't talked about.
Sure, an earthquake could have destroyed Jericho. God uses the
agency of natural things. God said he would destroy the Jewish
nation and send them into a long exile - but God didn't do this - the
Romans did. Same thing.
At Shiloh there is evidence for the precise sacrifice ritual mentioned
in Leviticus. And there's remains of the "horns of the altar."
No Babylonian scribes there, taking notes.
Oddly, 1 Samuel doesn't mention the destruction of Shiloh, only the
Ark being taken. (Looked it up again just now - there's cryptic reference
to an enemy being in the habitation (Shiloh))

 

Never heard of that.
It's as silly as Democrats singing Lennon's Imagine.

The truth of the bible is within the bible. You just have to read it yourself,
not find the most bizarre manifestations of someone's belief for the
purpose of mockery.

 

Of course the Babylonians didn't write the Bible. The Jews did, and they were around for at least part of the Bronze age. We have no date for the origin of the Jewish Tribe.. They were around in the 13th century BCE and a recent discovery may show that they were there 200 years earlier

The Jews used some material - Job etc - that had been around for sometime, But then the Job story is simple an adaptation from earlier writings asking the question 'why do the righteous suffer'. . Ludlul-Bel-Nimeqi circa 2000 BCE. Whereas Job is around the 8-7 the century BCE. Parts of the Psalms, Proverbs verses are similar to the Ugarit Psalms.

Your part about Daniel is completely Christian teaching. Danel/Daniel was a man respected by the Jews and made the subject of a story about a lions den. We talk of something being 'a lions den' today. The actual lions den was probably the Kings palace and the lions were the kings enemies.
But then there is the matter of the lions themselves. Although the story in Dan 6 gives every indication that the lions are real, it is worth noting that the ancient world also knew of the metaphorical use of the “lions’ den” motif, just as we do. So, for example, in a Neo-Assyrian letter from an ousted court official named Urad-Gula to King Ashurbanipal, Urad-Gula asks for financial assistance and, in the course of this request, describes the royal court metaphorically as a den or pit of lions. As with our contemporary use, then, this ancient letter employs the lions’ den as a metaphor for mean colleagues or wicked competitors.
https://www.bibleodyssey.org/en/passages/related-articles/was-there-a-lions-den

The rest of Daniel is merely a history of the Maccabean Period so obviously it mentions the Greeks. Can't see where it mentions the Romans. Though of course it was the Romans that took away Israels independence as the Hasmonean kingdom.

You claim Daniel is a prophetic book, yet the Jews never included it in their section of Prophets (Neviim). They include it in their section called Ketuvim (Writings). It never was considered prophetic but visionary. Daniel 2:19 - 7:1 - 7.15.

Sure, an earthquake could have destroyed Jericho. Just at the right time? What was the reason for the other earthquakes around Jericho?

 

Plain disgusting.

 

After the return from the first exile (Isaiah speaks of a second exile - our age) the
Jewish bible was sealed. Maccabees could not be a part of the Cannon. Yet some
would say Daniel was Maccabee era.
Daniel spoke of the killing of the Messiah. This was confronting to the Jews who
expected their Messiah to be the king, not a suffering Redeemer. The dates for
Daniel's Messiah are interesting, but I am inclined to suspect them.
Re lions, we will always find it hard to discern literal from figurative. I hold the flood
was figurative as the "world" back then wasn't the world of later periods, or today.

If Jewish exiles "wrote" the Torah then they did so from existing documents. The
prophet Samuel for instance would have been as far in the past to them as the
Middle Ages would be to us. And they didn't have our modern archaeology.

 

It's quite clear, in the last passage of the Christian bible, that whosoever adds or
take away from the bible would have the plaques of the bible added to him, or
his place in heaven taken from him.
Yes, disgusting. Never heard of this bible.
But also disgusting are those who created their own bibles from the bible - these
would include the Mormon Joseph Smith and the Muslim Mohammed.

 

Your dates are Rabbinic ideas are subject to change over time. Maimonides thoughts are often different to those of ancient Rabbinic 'sources Most modern scholars put things much later.

We have a fairly good idea about the date by which the books in the Jewish Bible (the same as the ones in the Protestant Old Testament) were completed (the latest seems to be Daniel, finished in approximately 165 B.C.E.), and we know that in the Rabbinic period a specific list of 22 books constituted the canon.
https://www.biblicalarchaeology.org/reviews/the-formation-of-the-jewish-canon/

The final section of the Bible, the Writings, is a miscellany of 13 very different books: three poetic books, the Psalms, Proverbs, and Job; the five scrolls Song of Songs, Book of Ruth, the Book of Lamentations, Ecclesiastes, and Book of Esther; and Daniel, Ezra-Nehemiah, and Chronicles.
Scholars largely agree that these books were written during the Second Temple period (538 B.C.E.- 70 C.E.), https://www.haaretz.com/jewish/.pre...he-canonization-of-the-hebrew-bible-1.7286146

Josephus refers to the Tanakh as having 22 books so 5 must have been added in his lifetime.

 

The Bible would not come into being for another 200 years. It refers to the Book of Revelations.

When Paul told Timothy to study the scriptures he was referring to the Jewish scriptures. Christian scriptures were not written by that time.

 

We believe that the book of Revelations was written at the end of the
First Century. Although Timothy, as a young itinerate minister in the
Christian faith, would have read the "Old Testament" he also had an
array of Christian works too - probably larger than what we have today.
There were the Gospels, Luke's Acts and many more Epistles than we
know of now.
The problem with "Jewish scriptures" is that Timothy wasn't preaching
Judaism, but the Christ.

 

Yes, this is the fashionable theory.
I read once that Daniel's reference to Alexander the Great is a handy way of
dating the writings. As if to say, "The author couldn't have known the future of
course so this proves the text was written after the Greek invasion."
No it doesn't "prove" at all.
This theory just makes the assumption that it is not possible to foretell events.
And you can't prove that.

Jacob in Egypt foretold of the rise and fall of a Hebrew nation. It would fall with
the coming of the Messiah. Was Genesis written after the First Century AD?
Daniel spoke of the enemy which destroys Jerusalem and the Temple also
"cutting off" the Messiah. Was Daniel written in the First Century AD ?

 

Here's another one that's been vexing me. You're a Christian, and you've exercised your God Given Right to own a fire arm. The time comes to use it. So you're on the firing line, gleefully mowing down the enemies of Jesus!! But alas, that moment arrives. You're down to your very last round. At your 10 o'clock is an evil Muslim, at your 2 o'clock is a filthy homosexual. Who would Jesus want you to shoot with that last bullet?

 

None, because violence had no part in Christianity.
(note Christianity - not Catholicism or Protestantism)

 

It's not a fashionable theory at all.

Jacob was never in Egypt. In fact Jacob and the rest of the Patriarchs are simply a story made up to give the Jews an origin they never had. There is no evidence for them at all. The Israelites were simply a tribe in Palestine.

Where does Daniel NAME Alexander the Great? The reference is to Antiochus Epiphanes.

Antiochus decided to side with the Hellenized Jews in order to consolidate his empire and to strengthen his hold over the region. He outlawed Jewish religious rites and traditions kept by observant Jews and ordered the worship of Zeus as the supreme god (2 Maccabees 6:1–12). This was anathema to the Jews and they refused, so Antiochus sent an army to enforce his decree. The city of Jerusalem was destroyed because of the resistance, many were slaughtered, and Antiochus established a military Greek citadel called the Acra.

The date of Antiochus's persecution of the Jews in Jerusalem is variously given as 168 or 167 BC. In their commentary on the Book of Daniel, Newsom and Breed argue for 167, although they state that good arguments can be made for either chronology.[17].

The word 'Messiah' in Hebrew simply means anointed one and there were many anointed ones in the OT - especially the High Priests. At the time the anointed High Priest was Onias and he was assassinated by his opponents. It's all their for you to find

Try reading the Jewish interpretation of the book of Daniel. After all they wrote it at the time. Not some Christian interpretation written centuries later. The story of Daniel in the lions den etc shows itself as simply a story, Many of the facts about the customs and time are completely wrong. I've given you articles which you obviously haven't studied.

You simply want to believe the Christian interpretation. The OT is Jewish - utterly and completely. Jesus used the OT because he believed it to be true. He had been taught from the age of 5 to 13 to learn the Tanakh. It was in accordance with Jewish law Proverbs 22:6. Now we know differently. Most Jews accept the early part of the Bible as allegories. In fact over 50% of Jews worldwide no longer practise their religion at all. That figure is from Jewish sources.

 

Like many things in the bible - there's different meanings to a given word.
Anointed could mean you are anointed like Saul and David were anointed,
and anointed could mean you are anointed by God. So Jesus was the
Anointed One but no one ever poured oil upon Him.
Yes, there's no evidence the Jews were slaves in Egypt. Not much evidence
for any other nation in the same situation either. But there's no evidence the
Jews were in Canaan all that time either.
There was "no evidence" for the kind of Jewish population in Palestine either,
until studies of Edom mining this year. Jews were mostly a tent people, like the
Edomites.
If I recall Daniel speaks of the ram of Greece moving with great fury, it's feet
hardly touching the ground. Reminds me of Alexander - sometimes charging
into battle before formations were ready. And his death led to four kings.
But the Messiah Daniel speaks of is killed by the same nation that would destroy
Israel and the Temple. Only Rome did that. And the Messiah would not die for
himself. He would bring an end to sin through his own sacrifice. He will bring an
end to the daily sacrifices. He will bring a new covenant.

Whether you believe Jacob was in Egypt or Canaan. His prophecy there will one
day be a Hebrew nation but it will end with the Messiah is the same as Daniel's.
that reminds me of the Exodus.

 

For goodness sake. Everything had to be written by hand. There were no printing presses. When Paul told Timothy to read the scriptures there were no Christian scriptures. . It was before any gospel was written, and before many of Paul's epistles were around. Pauls Epistles weren't mass produced. They were sent as one-off letters to different churches. Chrisrtianity and Christian scriptures were in the future. Paul was the instigator of today's Christianity and mixed Jewish theology with Greek Philiosophy. Jesus was simply a Jewish preacher - nothing more. His divinity is produced by misinterpreting Jewish scriptures.

 

The meaning of 'Messiah' is 'anointed one'. You cannot change the meaning of the Hebrew however you might want to. To do so throws the whole subject of word
meanings into chaos. Jesus was not anointed.

Merneptah Stele tells us that 'Israel is laid waste' 13century BCE.

I'm not wasting time going into the rest. I've given you the interpretation of Jewish scriptures in the references I've given you. If you can't bother to read them then I'm wasting my time.

I don't believe in long term prophecies. Prophecies are meant for the time - not the distant future.

Whether you believe Jacob was in Egypt or Canaan. His prophecy there will one
day be a Hebrew nation but it will end with the Messiah is the same as Daniel's.
that reminds me of the Exodus

You do realise that Daniel - the Jew - believed that the 'Messiah' would be a human who would lead Israel and bring the world to Jahweh. Not a man who died on a cross.

 

Yes, "anointed" also means "chosen one."
We still use the term to this day.
Jesus is also the "lamb of God", doesn't mean He was a sheep.
Jesus is also the "bread of life" but He's not a loaf of bread.
Jesus said we are to drink his blood but we aren't becoming vampires.

Truth is that words have multiple meanings, even in bible times. Words
are used as metaphors and symbols too. Jesus and His doctrine are
the spiritualization of the Old Testament.

 

Jesus is both Redeemer and King.
He will come a second time to be king. Those who accepted him in
His lowliness will reign with him in His glory.
Zechariah ca 450 BC, for instance, speaks of the King coming and
reigning over the nations - but this king is the lowly one who once
rode upon a donkey, the one the Jews "pierced." And the Jews will
mourn.

And Jesus spoke of the Jews losing their nation, but coming again
to reclaim Jerusalem when the Gentiles time is finished. Many of
the writers speak of this second return. It's happening right now.

Zechariah was long before Jesus was crucified. Jesus spoke of the
second return long before 1967.

 

You're not quoting meanings of words. You're simply using man made terms. Completely different. A metaphor doesn't explain the meaning of a word, It simply implies a hidden a hidden comparison.

Simply Christian teaching. NOTHING in the OT refers to the Christian Messiah. You should study the OT with Jewish eyes and with knowledge of the times etc. You look only from a Christian point of view.

I'm posting this completely because I know you won't bother to read it if I only give you the reference.

10. "I will pour out on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace and supplication, and they will look onto Me whom (et asher) they have pierced and they will mourn for Him as one mourns for an only son, and they will weep for Him like the weeping over a first born. 11. In that day there will be a great mourning in Jerusalem like the mourning of Hadadrimmon in the plain of Megiddo. 12. and the land will mourn every family by itself; the family of the house of David by itself; and their wives by themselves; the family of the house of Nathan by itself; and their wives by themselves..."
The Christian reading of this passage is somewhat problematic. The words "Me" and "Him" makes it quite obvious that the text is speaking of two different subjects. The gospel of John acknowledged this and therefore rendered the passage as, "they shall look on Him whom they pierced." This New Testament mistranslation of Zechariah in and of itself demonstrates that the New Testament is fallacious.

To interpret this passage that at some future time the "Jewish people shall look unto Me (G-d/Jesus) whom they (the Jewish people) pierced" does not seem to be what John had in mind. It is important to note that according to John, Zechariah's prophesy was fulfilled at the time that the Roman soldiers pierced the side of Jesus. As it says in John 19:36, "For these things came to pass that the scripture might be fulfilled." John saw the two different subjects of Zechariah's passage as the Roman soldiers and Jesus.

"They (the Roman soldiers) shall look on Him (Jesus) whom they (the Roman soldiers) pierced.

There is an additional problem in this passage. The Hebrew words "et asher" are not found very often in scripture. When they do occur together the phrase is read as "concerning whom" or "concerning that" but never as "whom". You can see this by reading the Hebrew original of Ezekiel 36:27. (It is also interesting to note that the Septuagint does not translate "et asher" as "whom." Its translation does not at all resemble the Christian interpretation.)
https://jewsforjudaism.org/knowledge/articles/analysis-of-zechariah-1210
The correct translation of Zechariah 12:10 should be."they will look onto Me concerning whom they have pierced and they will mourn for him"

This is consistent with the two subjects. By reviewing the context we can also understand of whom this passage is speaking. Starting with the beginning of Zechariah chapter 12 the prophet speaks of a time when the nations of the world will be gathered against Jerusalem to destroy it (Zec 12:3). On that day, G-d Himself will defend Jerusalem and destroy all of its enemies (Zec 12:4-9). G-d will pour out a spirit of grace and supplication toward the Jews. Grace is requested from G-d and supplication are directed to G-d.

This new spirit will motivate the Jewish nation to look towards G-d concerning those Jews (collective Jewish Martyrs) (see Hosea 11:1 for the Jewish people described as him. See Ex.1 etc. verbs of oppression in singular. Cf. Deut 32, Hos 8:3 and Ex. 19:2) who have been killed in battle prior to G-d's divine intervention in fighting our adversaries.

All the inhabitants of Jerusalem will mourn. This has obviously not yet been fulfilled, now or when the Roman soldier looked at Jesus. This understanding is validated by the scriptural description that this mourning in Jerusalem would be "like the mourning of Hadadrimmom in the Valley of Magiddo." This refers to the death of King Josiah who was killed in battle with Pharaoh Neco (2 Kings 23:29-30). After his death all of Judah and Jerusalem mourned for him (2 Chron 35:22-25). In the same way that the Jews mourned over King Josiah who died in battle so too will the Jewish people in the future mourn over their war dead.

 

I am the product of a democracy where we elect our own leaders. I am not interested in having a slobbering king ruling over me.

 

I like what Ricky Gervais said at the end of his Golden Globe presentation
to all those well heeled, important people, "Go home to your little gods."

 

It was called 'hand copying'
As seen with the dead sea scrolls people would copy it word for word, then count
each word to make sure they didn't miss anything.
The divinity of Christ is throughout the Old Testament. The Messiah, the lamb of
God who would be crucified, rejected of his own people and his own family even,
laying down his life for his people - the one the Gentiles would trust in (for a while
and then the punished Jews could go home.)

Paul was just one of seven writers of the New Testament. One was Jesus' own
brother.

 

Looks like some copy and paste from a Jewish source.
I like to read Biblehub when a translation is at issue - this site shows many interpretations
for each given verse.
I am fine with Jesus being the lowly one on the donkey, the one pierced, who will reign over
the nations. I am happy with the thought that David's Psalm 22 is Jesus as well.
And Job speaking of the Redeemer - not a reigning king but a redeemer.
And I am happy that the Messiah Jacob speaks of, coming at the end of Israel, is Jesus.