Pro-Palestinian protesters shout ‘Allahu akbar’ outside of World Trade Center site

Catholicism WAS Christianity in those early times.

 

Muslims do not hold this view as a call to action today.

You continue to accuse Muslims off following the beliefs of terrorists.

Muslims OPPOSE the small groups of terrorists causing serious problems in various places.

 

Hamas, Hezbollah, the Houthis, ISIS are ALL in fact Muslims and in fact hold this view as a call to action today. Your belief that they are not Muslims is irrelevant.

Just the Islamic fundamentalist who follow a strict literal interpretation of Islam. YOU are the only one making these all inclusive claims of what "Muslims" believe. All my assertions have been limited to those who follow a strict literal interpretation of Islam.

SOME do. Some whole heartedly support them. 57% of Muslims in the US support the October 7 attacks. Primarily a slaughtering of un armed civilians with no warfare in sight on that day before the attacks.

 

Back then bibles were written in Latin. People didnt read their own language, let alone Latin. Christian Doctrine became whatever the Catholic church said was doctrine. Invention of the printing press, the spread of literacy and the widespread translation and publication of the bible lead to the Protestant reformation and demonstrating the illegitimacy of the divine rule of the Catholic Church. Just as Thomas Paine used the text of the bible in his pamphlet, "Common Sense" to demonstrate the illegitimacy of the divine rule of monarchs, and the legitimacy of government of, by and for the people to set off our revolution.
The Catholic Church waged war to establish its empire in spite of the written doctrine of the bible. Hamas wages war today in accordance with the doctrine of the Koran.

 

Count their numbers.

It's like claiming the KKK represents Christianity.

Israel has waged war on Gaza on a DAILY basis for DECADES.

Gaza is denied fishing its own waters, EXPORTS, imports, travel, the fossil fuel assets within its waters, well supplied hospitals, working utilities and many other fundamentals. More than 60% of Gaza was food insecure BEFORE October. Israel ensures its airport is unusable, such that commerce is limited to what can cross Israeli controlled check points - a method used to ensure the above.

This IS war by all international definitions, including US definition.

 

The UN Security Council has the job of certifying whether a new government has the government, infrastructure, banking, etc. to be considered a valid applicant for joining the UN.

They certified Palestine had such qualifications.

This is where the US stepped in and used its veto power to prevent this from happening. The US has been strongly anti-Palestine for a VERY long time, instead supporting the war machine of Israel in its atrocities in West Bank and Gaza.

So, the UN general assembly voted to include Palestine as a non-voting member with observer state privilege, which means they have access to the legal, economic, humanitarian and other branches of the UN.

 

OOOOk And this has what to do with your assertions regarding

And my response. All those countries above DID NOT implement the form of government and law to be applied based upon dictates of religious texts. The Islamic Caliphates DID establish the form of government and laws to be applied in the territories they controlled. DID wage war to establish and expand their control ACCORDING to the dictates of the Koran and Hadiths. WTF does UN have to do with ANY of that. You are just dashing off into irrelevance to avoid addressing the relevant.

 

No, this isn't accurate at all. The countries I mentioned ALL had religions.

Whether they all had "texts" is not worth discussing.

Russia/USSR demonstrates the fact of human propensity.

In Japan, their GOD was living on Earth where he could give direction to his people throughout WWII and after.

 

What you want to discount is the very FOUNDATION of Christianity - a foundation that exists today.

As for the US, let's remember our forays into Korea, Vietnam, Afghanistan, Libya, Iraq, Iran (where we instigated a government overthrow), and in Palestine - where the US has given strong political protection and massive arms in order for Israel to carry out `genocide against those nasty Islamic Palestinians.

Besides, do you think Palestinians don't agree with Thomas Paine???

Do you think they don't agree with our own founding documents and revolution against the king due to our colonies not having self rule or representation.

We claim these are self evident rights of man.

What is the foundation for our treatment of Palestinians as not being humans?

Why do we help slaughter Palestinians, steal their land, bulldoze their homes, deny them water rights?

How can we possibly believe in our founding documents, yet do what we do?

 

I said

Most KKK members WERE christians back in their day. And the relevant difference here is that if you could set a KKK member down with a bible in hand and show them the scriptures that show their actions and views to be antithetical to the christian doctrine of the bible. While on the other hand Hamas, Hezbollah, the Houthis, ISIS can take a koran in hand and show the verses that wholly support their actions. A long list of verses commanding them to "fight", "kill", "slay" and "smite the necks" of the unbelievers "until... religion is only for Allah".
For christs sake Hamas starts their charter with

In The Name Of The Most Merciful Allah

"Ye are the best nation that hath been raised up unto mankind: ye command that which is just, and ye forbid that which is unjust, and ye believe in Allah. And if they who have received the scriptures had believed, it had surely been the better for them: there are believers among them, but the greater part of them are transgressors. They shall not hurt you, unless with a slight hurt; and if they fight against you, they shall turn their backs to you, and they shall not be helped. They are smitten with vileness wheresoever they are found; unless they obtain security by entering into a treaty with Allah, and a treaty with men; and they draw on themselves indignation from Allah, and they are afflicted with poverty. This they suffer, because they disbelieved the signs of Allah, and slew the prophets unjustly; this, because they were rebellious, and transgressed." (Al-Imran - verses 109-111).

Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it" (The Martyr, Imam Hassan al-Banna, of blessed memory).

Hamas uses Islamic doctrine to justify their actions. Waging war upon the Jews just as their blessed prophet Muhammad waged war upon the Jews. To deny this is to deny reality. Very common around here.

 

The holy Roman empire became a church. They havent waged war in quite some time. The error of their empire was shown to be illegitimate based upon the text of the bible. John Locke used the text of the bible to write the Reasonableness of Christianity(1695) and transformed christianity that had become a relation between the individual and the Catholic Church, invented by the Catholics, into a religion that was a relation between the individual and god.

 

Never claimed they didnt have religion. I said their form of government and laws applied werent dictated by their written texts of their religions. Christian doctrine doesnt concern itself with government and laws to be applied. "My kingdom is not of this world" "render unto Ceasar, that which is Ceasars, render unto God, that which is Gods" "obey all authorities instituted amongst men" and all of that. Koran and Hadiths dictates both the form of government and law to be applied.

"Jihad is an obligation from Allah on every Muslim and cannot be ignored nor evaded.... It is the nature of Islam to dominate, not to be dominated, to impose its law on all nations and to extend its power to the entire planet." Founder Of Muslim Brotherhood.

 

Um. Not at all anything like that. Like, not even a little bit.

On 15 May 1948, the civil war transformed into a conflict between Israel and the Arab states following the Israeli Declaration of Independence the previous day. Egypt, Transjordan, Syria, and expeditionary forces from Iraq entered Palestine.[16][17][18][19] The invading forces took control of the Arab areas and immediately attacked Israeli forces and several Jewish settlements.


Ah, wouldn't ya know. The Arabs started attacking and invading. Who-da-thunk.

And as has transpired for eons, the Arabs lost the war again. (Sad face)

And Israel captured land as a result of this war from the Arab invasion to protect its interests and sovereignty from more attacks. And attacks they came, many of them.... for decades. Each time, the Arabs playing the victim.

Sound familiar?

 

Yes, there are many people in western culture over the centuries who have believed in some form of Christianity.

Not the followers of Judaism, obviously.

But, you are forgetting that church and state were welded up to the time of our colonies. There were wars fought over who should have dominion over the people, demanding a specific version of Christianity. You forget the crusades. You forget the several inquisitions.

And, Israel has struggled with that, too, as they see their government tied to Judaism to the point of considering non-Jews (Muslims, Christians, etc.) as a population of lesser citizens.

And, you seem to forget the prevalence of Catholicism today. It's fine for you to not be a Catholic, however your attempts to divide Christianity don't have a place here.

 

I wouldnt agree with your characterization above regarding the deaths of Palestinian civilians but
1947 Partition plan, 91 Madrid, 93 Oslo, 00 camp David, 03 Arab League, 13-14 Peace talks. Sure the Palestinians are always willing to accept a Palestinian state, but cant recognize the right of Israel to exist. They want the "River to the Sea". Nothing less. And their primary tactic is slaughtering civilian Israeli Jews. Terrorist attacks. And the likes of Hamas imbed their weapons in civilian areas. Both targeting civilians hiding weapons and firing from civilian areas violate the rules of warfare. The Palestinians tactics leave the Israeli military no choice to defeat the enemy. Hamas is still waging war, launching rockets from Gaza, purposely into civilian areas from civilian areas. Not because it gives them some military benefit but to instead terrorize the civilian population.
One could argue Israel needs to do better at avoiding civilian deaths, but not that they cant wage war against Hamas, because the civilians they are hiding behind might get killed.
And as an American, our actions in response to terrorist attacks from the other side of the world, doesnt give us much right to condemn Israel for Palestinian deaths.

 

Thomas Paine published his pamphlet "Common Sense" 1776. For the first time in our nations history, knocked the Bible of its long standing # 1 seller spot in America. Arguably sparked the Revolution. A Revolution against the King, frigin ordained by the Episcopal Church and therefore GOD to rule over England and her colonies. And Paine was, among other things able to use the doctrine of the bible to demonstrate the illegitimacy of the "divine" rule of Monarchs ordained by the church AND the legitimacy and right of government, of, by and for the people.
All that invented by the Catholic Church, copied by the Episcopalian church, of monarchs with the right granted by god to rule over the land and the people HAS NO BASIS in doctrine of the bible. They made it up.
You can look at the first 300 years of christianity to see how christian doctrine is intended to be applied in society. It encircled the Mediterranean Sea, hindered and persecuted every step of the way by the governing authorities, never spread by warfare and instead word of mouth.
In contrast to Islam, the first 80 years after Muhammads death, first they waged the wars of Apostasy, to keep all the Muslims in line and paying tribute to Mecca, then they were waging violent Jihad as far as Afghanistan to the east and Spain to the west to dominate the land. Seize power from those who currently ruled. The first 3 Caliphs are viewed by the Sunnis today as the "Rightly Guided" Caliphs, most closely following a strict, literal interpretation of the Koran. Most successfully expanding the empire by the sword

 

Palestine has LONG recognized Israel's permanence.

That goes back to Clinton's presidency.

You can always find terrorists who don't agree, but Hamas even that far back confirmed that President Abbas negotiated for all of Palestine.

And, they knew full well that Abbas was in NO WAY considering that Israel wasn't permanent.

More recently, Hamas was prepared to accede to the unity government of President Abbas - a government dedicated to nonviolent negotiation and NO seats reserved for Hamas.


Look, the constant claim that Hamas is dedicated to ending Israel is total BS and is used by Israel as an excuse to justify violence along with a many decades long refusal to negotiate.

 

The Catholic church WAS the foundation of Christianity.

You can't talk about that origin as a fabrication.

Nor can you form ANY argument that Christians weren't a primary military force that warred on the Ottoman and Byzantine empires, with the objective of capturing Jerusalem and surrounding area - an area at GREAT distance from western religious governance.

You aren't putting together a rational argument tied to the genocide waged by Israel on Palestine with major help by America.

 

The Catholic Church WAS the foundation until 300 AD when the Roman empire made the Church their b#tch. Turned it into something else with no legitimacy to be found in the bible. Fortunately for them people couldnt read the bible written in Latin and the church was able to convince the people that christian doctrine is whatever the church tells them what is doctrine. Throw in the spread of literacy, invention of the printing press, widespread translation and publications of the bible and you get the protestant reformation. Text of the bible used to return Christianity to the doctrine of the bible and away from the inventions of the catholic church that had taken its place.

Much like the Salfi movement within Sunni Islam seeks to return Islam to that what is revealed in the Koran and Hadiths. An Islamic reformation returning Islam to its 10th century interpretation, following a strict and literal interpretation of the Koran. Islamic Caliphates ruled according to the dictates of doctrine applying Shariah as law. All the terrorist groups consider themselves to be Salafi, following authentic Islam, uncorrupted by modern inventions departing from the text of the koran.

 

Gaza and its arab, muslim population, has one of the highest rates of natural population growth IN THE WORLD. There is no ethnic genocide. Genocides lead to reduction of an ethnic population.

 

???? It is literally spelled out in their founding document that governs today. Claiming it is BS is to deny reality.

"Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it" (The Martyr, Imam Hassan al-Banna, of blessed memory)."

 

Your attempts to interpret other people's religions in a way that satisfies you is just flat out ridiculous.

There are more than 2 BILLION Muslims in the world. If they believed what YOU claim they believe, this world would be a stupendously different world.

Even if just the Muslims in America believed what YOU claim, things would be very different.

Your strategy for promoting all Muslims as terrorists is STUNNINGLY hateful as well as being absolutely false.

 

It is not a strawman argument Dixon. To properly study any religious book, whether it is the Bible, the Quran, or others, you need to learn the language it was written in at that time. But if we selectively choose verses, then we run into the tempation of making those verses into something from our own political agendas. We have done this with Christianity, and terrorists do that today with their selective verses. Thus, they are all interpreting their religion in such a way to meet their political agenda, aka interpretation.

No, I kicke the **** out of your argument here. You were the ones who said all Muslims, and then try to support that with the selective verses you were using, implying that all Muslims are terrorists.

Says by someone who does not know how to study objectively any religious book. But I used your own link, and it appears you did not read/understand it all. Simply dismissing it does not make your point valid,. It invalidates it, pure and simple by your own link that you used. Again, the original meaning of the term was to Meccans, who were polythesistic. But it also means that death was more of a "day of judgment" which the Book of Revelation uses in the Bible, along with other passages written by Paul or when Jesus spoke directly.

 

You missed the point. In the bible, it literally says that. There is no denying that. But the question you need to ask yourself is can someone interpret that verse to literally mean that we all die physically. The verse that you quoted can be interpreted in many different ways. It was originally polytheistic. Christians and Jews ARE NOT polytheists. They were Meccans. It was later translated into "infadels" in the English language, but the original language is still "Kefir." And it is the same with the word "love" such as Ephesians Chapter 5. Greeks have specific words for love in their definition whereas the English language can be very vague or have multiple definitions. We differentiate the different definitions by the context they are used. To get the context, you need to look at the whole passages from that Surah. That would include the entire chapter, not just the single verse, much like we do with the Bible, not just the single verse or part of the verse. That is what you don't understand and never will

I have offered plenty, but you are incapable of seeing it objectively. That is your problem, not mine.

 

They may be Muslim, but their purpose is not religion, it is political power. They just use religion, Islam, to justify their actions much the same way that Christians use the "just war" doctrine to justify their own actions. And yes, we have Christian Terrorists. Eric Rudolf is one, so is Dylan Roof, so was Timothy McVeigh, so was David Koresh, remember him, not to mention the KKK, White Nationalism generally, White Supremacy generally, Nazis, and so forth. I can give you Aryan Nations. Army of God, and other Christian terrorist groups that have bombed abortion clinics, killed certain people based on religious convictions, and so forth. They are not written much in the media, but they are there. And the same can be said with other religions as well from the mastermind of the Tokyo Subway Attack to Thailand, India, and other places around the world. Just because they are Muslim or Christian does not mean they represent the faiths of all, yet that is the premise of your entire argument, which has been debunked time and time again,.

They ae not following a "strict literal interpretation." It is their interpretation, fabricated to fit a political agenda much the same as some pastors who want to kill LGBTQ people because their faith demands it or that Trump is the Son of God. Same exact thing. That is what we are arguing and why your premise is so wrong.

You are misquoting the poll you are referring to. The 57% is the Palestinian situation, not Hamas in and of itself. They say the Hamas Attack was "somewhat justified" or in other words, a just cause. This has to do with the complex situation between Israel and the Palestinians. Again, there are no innocents in that region. Not the Israelis, and not the Palestinians. I would suggest you study the region carefully, use objective sources, not what you are currently using with a very tainted viewpoint.