Question for libertarians & conservatives

People are people regardless of their decisions. All human life is valuable. The ploy to pit vaccinated against unvaccinated is an evil one.` This is an issue made because we are on the slippery slope of government entitlements or socialist policy. This is how Socialism/Marxism works. It says "we will pay for your healthcare.....but we decide who gets it. You don't march to our tune....you ain't getting any!" So this problem is created by those that would sell out liberty for security and nothing else! You PatricioDa Silva, seem to want to twist it around and blame Conservatives. With private healthcare, the market decides. If you want to smoke...you can pay a little more for insurance. If you don't want to pay for insurance, you can seek the mercy of a charity. The desire is, that you be productive and contribute. If you don't....you fall on hard times, but be encouraged, you can do it. Government is not the answer. Conservatives and traditional American values are not to blame for the dilemma you propose. It is the New American Marxism that is to blame.
I am vaccinated. I have an umbrella. Because some don't have umbrellas does not mean I am going to get wet. I don't need to steal their liberty. In fact, they have some pretty damn good arguments! Just because some are willing to goosestep to the tune of mandates doesn't make it right!!

 

You are the one who had memory problems. Go back and read OP, fourth paragraph which you wrote. It says "But, here is the inescapable fact: 99.5% of the ICU Covid beds are occupied by the UNVACCINATED. " Your words.

Now go to post #158. "One in 200 has to do with the percentage of covid deaths who are vaccinated" Your words.

The 10X and the one in two hundred refer to similar things. Not identical. However, 200 is 20 times as big as 10. That tells me that the situation is worse now for those that got vaccinated than originally thought. That is and has been my point all along. That opinion is shared by CDC. The vaccinations are not as effective against the Delta Variant as against Covid-19. That is important. Especially to people like me.

You did accuse me of having a memory problem. You apparently have a very severe memory program because in post #136 your words were "Hold your horses, kriman, you are getting your numbers mixed up. That's okay, you are 84, you are exused. Again your own words. At least in my old age, I know how to spell excused.

 

Your claim that 99.5% of hospital beds occupied by Unvaxed - is a raging falsehood - best to get your ducks in a row before loading shotgun.

You overall point was interesting - albeit a bit convoluted and conflated.

We do hear red complaining "Why should I pay taxes" - when some of those taxes go to things I don't like - such as for risky lifestyle choices .. such as actions - or non action leading to Obesity.

I might counter - Why should I pay for Roads - when I have no car - and for the healthcare costs of all those people engaging in that extremely risky behavoir..

In fact - Given the risk of harm from walking is 400 times greater than the risk of harm from a terrorist attack - Why the hell should I be paying for sidewalks .. and the associated HC costs of those people who engage in risky behavoir such as "Walking".

The above is a Utilitarian Argument - one pioneered by Blue but oft used by Red. Vax mandates also flow from utilitarian justification.

 

1) Innovation is not impacted. My nation has one of the best healthcare systems in the world, and it's been 'public' for many decades.

2) It's not entirely efficient, but then neither is the world of disease and injury. There are too many variables to treat it like a corner store.

3) "Rationing" is TRIAGE. Urgent/life-threatening cases are always prioritised, no matter what. If you have to wait for treatment, it's because your condition is not life-threatening. Any 'rationing' other than medical need would be deeply unjust. People who want non-medical things prioritised ("I want my own doctor" or "I want a private room" or "my bad knee is messing with my golf game - I want it replaced now") can pay for it privately.

4) The primary fraud is from citizens who abuse their bodies. There is some secondary fraud from overservicing doctors, but this is fairly well policed these days, so it's not easy to get away with on a large scale.

 

10x less likely to be hospitalized does not equate to making up only .5% of hospitalizations. Are you wondering why you can't find a study that outright says what you have claimed?

 

Okay, how does the government locate and then isolate 82,050,000 people who have covid?

I mean, the real nuts and bolts of doing it, state by state, county by county, city by city, block by block.

How?

 

We'll isolate just like we've been doing it for the past year. No unvaccinated and highly susceptible to Covid at football games, for example...Just like people were indiscriminately turned away from football games in 2020. Instead of having to show a vaccination card at a restaurant, for example, demand a report or card showing being highly susceptible and unvaccinated at a restaurant, for example.

If highly susceptible and unvaccinated people refuse to isolate, fire them! Just like NY state is doing now.

 

Specious logic, all of it.

Vaccines are very effective, noting the following

1. Very effective against the first strain of covid
2. ON delta, still very effective insofar as preventing occupying ICU beds and preventing deaths.

Trump did NOTHING, he just approved the fast track policy, which is what ALL presidents would have done, anyway, so that fact is not a 'brownie point'
and note that the back ground work on mRNA vaccines had already been 10 years in the making starting with DARPA

The vaccines sufficient to do the job were already produced before Biden, and asserting that 'biden produced no vaccines' is a specious argument because those three vaccines are doing the job and thus the urgency of new vaccines has waned.

Deaths are on the increase because:

1. Delta is twice as contagious and dangerous as the first strain.
2. A large swath of the population refuse vaccination and most of them are republicans.

That is not Biden's fault, but #2 Trump did not do enough to encourage vaccination ( just a fleeting mention during rallies, ONCE ) and he encourage methods NOT APPROVED BY THE FDA for dealing covid.

He actively promoted NOT testing. He said 'testing causes more cases' which is the stupidest thing I've heard any president ever make.

The fact that he put the breaks on testing was one of the reasons the trajectory rate of increase of infections skyrocketed in the first place.

Biden supports pharma waiving intellectual property protection for COVID vaccines so that other countries could produce them, which would speed up world wide vaccination and reduce burden on US taxpayers.

Did Trump promote this? I couldn't find anything that says he did.

 

The vaccine issue has to do with mandates. Mandates, which have been enacted thus far, always give a choice.

Removing your liberty, for that to occur, the government would have to make it illegal to refuse vaccination. It hasn't done that so 'liberty' is not an merit worthy argument.

And, what are the mandates trying to do? Well, the pandemic is a threat the health of the nation, and requires drastic measures to contain it, or the health of the nation if allowed to decline represents a threat to US National Security. So, your cires of 'liberty' cannot supercede the need to promote health of the nation when a pandemic threatens it. I'm sorry. I'd rather vaccinate and live that be dead and free. Death is not freedom, the last time I checked.

Of for lawd's sakes, republicans have been spending like drunken socialists during Trump more than any democrat president in history.

It's called 'hypocrisy'.

Now then, philosophically speaking, I've addressed these issues in an earlier post. Do me a favor and read it, see what you think:

http://www.politicalforum.com/index.php?threads/politics-of-the-center-what-is-it.585857/

I am not a marxist, nor do I support any form of totalitarianism. NOte that anything less than totalitarianism is NOT marxism.

Grey is NOT black. Dark grey you might have a point, but no one is arguing dark grey, either.

Capiche?

 

I did not refute that point.

What I did refute is your accusing me of accusing you of a memory problem, which I did not.

Until, of course, you forgot that I did not accuse you of it.

"You are excused" does not refer to a memory problem, but a 'confused' problem. You have therefore misconstrued the meaning of my words. I believe I even stated you are confused, because, well, isn't that what 'mixed up' means?

As for spelling, some of us are fast typers and misspellings are inevitable. This is why we use the correction function for corrections. At times, some of us, and probably including you, will miss a word here and there, but to insinuate I can't spell 'excused' because you were able to, is a logical fallacy.

They are not the same stats. Although they are related, but to compare them in the sense of one diminishing from the other is a false comparison,

If you have identical stats from past to now, and the latter is diminishing from the former, then, and only then, does your comparison work.

The delta variant is what makes it worse.

The vaccination is effective against delta insofar as preventing deaths and occupying ICU beds.

Anything else, kriman?

 

Well, 99% of hospitalizations are covid. Is this a distinction with that big of a difference? The salient point is not so much the actual stat, whether it's 99% or 99.5% or not, or even if it is 75%, it is the fact that most of the hospitalizations are covid. The point, sufficient to alarm us of this fact about covid, is served by either stats, whether the numbers are accurate or not because those numbers are shifting all the time, it's like you are standing on ice in the ocean, noting that the ice is shifting around, getting smaller if the temperature varies, maybe getting bigger if it gets colder but all the while the danger is pretty much the same.

https://www.webmd.com/vaccines/covi...hospitalized-2021-covid-patients-unvaccinated

 

You are nitpicking the numbers where that isn't the important point.

The salient point is that your odds of dying are substantially greater if get covid and you do not get vaccinated.

Get your shot.

 

We have been operating in shades of grey far too long. The "squad" that is greatly influencing this Nation is "black". If we are to counter that, it is with white. The grey goes no where. The pandemic now does not need mandates. It is only fear instilled by the "dark side" that implements them. It is a tool for the left to perpetuate fear and division.
Sure, Republicans have increased spending as well. Part of it was to fire up the economy after a "mandated" economy shutdown and you know that. Both sides are guilty, Republicans to a lessor degree. This new bill is less than 20% real infrastructure. It is a drive to increase government dependence!

 

Many hospitalizations of people with Covid - are not being hospitalized because of Covid .. and the obscenity of the number should tell you that. Did folks stop getting sick from other things ? No .. they didn't .. they happened to have a heart attack - and had previously had covid - still having antibodies which trigger a positive test.

I do not disagree with that getting vaxed lessens symptoms resulting in hospitalization - but this is over a very small percent of people .. those who have comorbidities, are Obese, or Pneumonia susceptible.

What is exceedingly rare .. far less than 1% -- is someone who does not have one of the above conditions ending up in the ICU or dying from covid.

For peopole not in the above categories - the vaccine is more dangerous than covid - expecially when taken over a lifetime .. and we should not be calling this a vaccine because its not ... A vaccine stops transmission in its tracks .. this "treatment" does not .. which is a really bad thing - as this allows the virus to become stronger.

 

I'm all for it but some 29 or so red states aren't going to go along with it, so it's just dreaming, at this point.

How is 'susceptibility' shown? That sounds pretty vague. The vax proof ( I got a QR code from my state ) is about the best you can do.

 

Read the link I provided.

Moderate grey is good, too much is bad.

 

You are saying the covid shots are bad?

Where do you get that information?

 

What do you call this ?"Hold your horses, kriman, you are getting your numbers mixed up. That's okay, you are 84, you are exused" Getting the numbers mixed up would be a memory problem.

Just more of your excuses of your own poor memory.

They are directly comparable because of the massive difference in magnitude. It confirms what I have been saying. The vaccines are less effective against the delta variant.

Effective is a relative term. The vaccine is less effective against Delta. And that was my point.

For the umpteenth time. Your May statistic borders on useless because it was between peaks and the peaks were due to two different variations of the virus. We are now in a whole new ball game. It have been vaccinated, but statistically it is less effective against the virus which we are now fighting. Fortunately, it looks like it is also on the down slope.

 

Bad in what way ? Obviously anything that incurrs a risk of harm could be said to be bad - go read my post again - I said the risk of harm from the shot "FOR SOMEONE NOT IN AFOREMENTIONED CATEGORIES" was about the same as the risk from Covid.

This information comes from Gov't websites. Folks are dying from the vax - and having serious adverse reations. Did you not know this ?

 

Super specious use of non logic.
1. I said vaccines are effective. You called it specious.
2. You speak of double. Double 0 is zero. Double 1 percent is 2 percent. 2 percent is much lower than 100 percent. Trumps death rate was next to nothing.
3. Testing is not helpful. When one has treatment, then it is helpful.
4. Mitigation is helpful. Such as distance and Surgical masks. The cloth masks used in public amount to a placebo.
5. Factually very few listened to Trump. Democrats certainly did not listen. They accepted 2nd hand news from their CNN or MSNBC stations.
6. The press did not become hostile to Trump, he began on day one with them hostile.
Simply put, if you know a person who is angry at you, over nothing at all, they will bad mouth you all day long.
Example is you badmouthing Trump.
There is no evidence that other presidents conceived Warp Speed as a policy.
This is so important, we can't skip around this.
Warp speed not only hurried things up, it removed barriers normal to the vaccine process trying to save lives. I imagine Trump got kickback on Warp Speed but unless he did that, vaccines would still not be available due to the extreme long time constraints faced by vaccines. So far as the news reports, Biden killed that program due to his hate for Trump.
Again, you claim Republicans do not want the vaccine. This is a false report you got from some kind of so called news agency. And they lied daily about Trump.
In fact the moment I could be vaccinated, I got vaccinated. The place where I got vaccinated was very busy doing vaccinations in this Republican state.

Factually nobody surveyed me on this to learn what political party I vote for. I have taken 3 surveys so far. None act political.

 

Sorry to jump in but .. the "non logic" I see here is the claim "vaccines are effective" Effective at what ?

Are they effective at killing people .. sure - in small numbers .. causing reactions .. sure .. Not sure if specious is the right word .. but it is close .. I would call the claim unsupported nonsense .. as we have not "what" attached to it.

We should not be calling Phizer - Moderna - vaccines.. they should be referred to as treatments.

Vaccines are effective in stopping transmission of a virus - which is somethign we want - as not stopping transmission will increase the abilities of the virus to beat our defenses.

These "So called" vaccines - do not stop transmission - by any stretch of the imagination .. orders of magnitude lower ability to stop transmission than a regular Vax .. small pox - polio - and in fact it does not work like those other vaccines.

If I want to make a bacteria resistant to anti-biotics .. what do I do ? Introduce a small enough dose of the anti-biotic into a culture media .. and regrow the one's that live - adding higher and hither doses .

Conversely - if you kill all the bacteria by adding a high dose - this effect doesn't happen - and in the case where only a few survive - happens far les quickly than in the above case.

Where do you think this "Vax" falls on the spectrum .. barely reduces transmission .. never mind stop the thing in its tracks like Polio vax.

Folks who have had covid have 27 times the immunity as the vax gives .. why should such people take the vax .. something that carries a far greater risk of harm - than this person getting re-infected with Covid .

 

I am not clear, due to my not being a professional in the Medical field, that any vaccine totally blocks all diseases all the time.
Treatment it is. I got Treated. I think my chances of dying fell by a hell of a lot.
I was not willing to try to get CV19 just to get those antibodies. Sorry but I don't enjoy laying in bed ridden with pain as those with it get. I can't chance it would only be mild. So i got the treatment.

Bacteria live. Virus are not living.

 

? A virus is living - and acts just like a bacteria in the previous analogy - living or un-living .. so it matters not whether a virus is living - the analogy holds .. and the repurcussions.

Learn to read - didn't say a vax blocks disease all the time - and I explain this in previous post. It is a probability function - if you have a high enough percentage of blockage .. you stop the disease in its tracks.. the Polio vax has a very high percentage .. these Covid vaccines .. a very low percentage .. far beyond the point where the lack of ability to stop transmission is a problem.

In terms of "chances of dying" - it depends on who you are .. whether or not you have co-morbidities - and/or Obesity - and/or Pneumonia susceptible and/or have had covid previously.

If you have had covid - and didn't die - your chances of dying are ridiculously low .. far lower than taking the vax.
If you havn't had Covid - but don't have any of the above afflictions - your chance of dying - and/or adverse reaction is similar.
If you are in one of the risk categories .. your chances of dying from covid are mich higher than taking the vaccine.

 

Thanks for the dressing down. I needed that today.

 

My pleasure