Gibraltar was Spanish until its lose. However, just I was giving other point of view. Because I don't care a (*)(*)(*)(*) about Gibraltar. For me it can be British or indpendent. Ceuta and Melilla has been Spanish forever, we can say. Gibraltar was Spanish until they lost it after war. That is a big difference. Gibraltar is under British nationality under a treaty. Specific conditions and if this conditions are broken the international treaty is not valid, and Gibraltar comes to the previous status, that was being of Spain. I am trying to give a neutral point of view, from the information that I have, that it is not too much, because it is a topic that I don't have almost any interest. - - - Updated - - - If you are going in this way, I can mention the British that stopped in Spain to receive medical treatment, because here in Spain was better and cheaper(free) than Britain. The cost of Spanish immigrants? Like nurses, engineers... that Britain have been receiving? That they didn't spend any euro in their education, but Britain get the services from them. Hey, if we do this game tag, maybe both we can end bad. And yes, Spain is a stupid country. And mainly the government. And I repeat I don't care. I participated in the thread because of the stupid menace of war. And to give the Spanish viewpoint, that I don't need to agree with it.
I have to disagree with you on your claim that Ceuta has been Spanish forever. It has had other owners in the past. Melilla was taken with force by the Spanish, just like Gibraltar was conquered by the British. But we could let the citizens of Ceuta and Melilla vote about what country they belong to. Just like the people like in Gibraltar have done.
Really? My info says it was ceded in 1668. And that Muslim rule ended in 1415 and not the 13th century. Gibraltar is a part of Britain but it is self governing. It doesn't matter how you manage an overseas possession because it would still be British soil. Also you cannot compare Australia and Canada to Gibraltar because they are fully fledged nations and have no constitutional links to Britain. Excuse me. Do you have any idea how many we have here who aren't educated and don't fill the jobs that you mentioned? Immigration is killing the British economy and dividing our nation piece by piece. Most Brits can't work in even the most menial and simple jobs anymore. Sorry?! were supposed to spend money on your education. You guys pays 900EU per annum. The only difference between Euro workers and British workers is that they are cheaper and sloppier.
Yes I know. I was saying that is what I would rather see done if Spain refuses to cease it's harassment of Gibraltar.
So how do you think the UK govt should deal with the Spanish govt's harrassment of Gibraltar? The diplomatic approach doesn't seem to be working.
Well actually. Guardia Civil boats had fired shots within Gibraltar and at a citizen. Also Spanish warplanes had violated our airspace. This is technically an act of war. I take offence to the remark of "you are insane" If you cannot engage in an argument without resorting to rudeness then what does that say about you?
Right now we see a lot of posturing from both countries, because both British and Spanish politicians know that all populations are partly made up of people who are really turned on by all the huffing and puffing. So we will see flag waving and grandstanding and moving forth and back of ships and aircraft in order to score points on the home front. It is naïve to think that a solution will be found right away. If I remember correctly the Cod wars lasted a while and included quite a bit of chest thumping. There was even a casualty if my memory serves me right. Yet a political solution was found. This probably disappointed the warmongers and armchair generals. But I fully understand that talking about teaching those [insert other nationality] a lesson can seem manly and macho. Just look at the way everybody went nuts in the first years of the Afghanistan and Iraq wars.
See also my answer to Tamora. Starting a war over something that can and should be solved diplomatically is insane. Crying for a military solution is insane. Being ready to spend billions and wasting lives on something like this is insane. Going for the military option which will not bring a long term solution is insane.
You haven't read my previous comments. IF Spain does not stop harassing Gibraltar then I would go to war. You have to negotiate beforehand hence I said "IF" I mean where did I say that we must go straight to war? To be honest Spain's aggressive attitude towards Gibraltar would warrant military action. I mean how else do you put an end to a problem like this if Spain continues to violate British sovereignty by incursions into our borders? Particularly if negotiations fail. Actually most people were against the war in Iraq and we were slightly in favour for Afghanistan. When Spain gives up this ridiculous idea that Gibraltar belongs to it then we can avoid the final action of war. Again I take offence to being called "insane" I think you should retract that statement.
Cameron calls in the European Commission to monitor Gibraltar spat... UK calls for EC Gibraltar monitors Sun, Aug 18, 2013 - British Prime Minister David Cameron has urged the president of the European Commission (EC) to dispatch a monitoring team to the border between Spain and Gibraltar, where increased checks imposed by Spanish authorities have been at the center of a diplomatic spat.
Whatever. In the meantime I hope the British government continues to support Gibraltarians in their clear wish to remain a British overseas territory, standing up to Spanish posturing.
What I think is actually quite disappointing through out this whole issue is the lack of leadership from Brussels. I haven't seen any response from France, Germany, EU president or Commission President on the subject. The whole point of leaders is to lead, step in at time of conflict and get things resolved with their authority to get one side or the other to budge. EU leadership during the Eurozone Crisis as been poor in general and lacked any other tactic than emergency fire fighting and lets just wait and see how it pans out. The Spanish Government are a bunch of crooks filling their pockets at the expense of the public. They are trying to win points with the Spanish public by taking on the UK on Gibraltar. Spanish PM Mariano Rajoy admits 'mistake' over scandal Spain's Rajoy says he was wrong to trust treasurer in party funding scandal Citizens must understand the delays are because of the unfair behavior of Gibraltar Damage from Spains crooked dark side [h=1]PP split over fallout from Bárcenas corruption revelations[/h]
IMO - its most unlikely that shots will be fired . As might already have been said , the present Spanish govt. is employing tricking tactics to divert their public's attention from its economic situation, meanwhile its worth noting the Spanish Govt hypocrisy. Just across the Strait of Gibraltar off North African coast lies Ceuta - a Spanish colony. "Yet try to point out Spains own string of post-colonial possessions on the African coast, such as Ceuta clearly visible on Gibraltars horizon and the response is a furious outburst of sanctimonious shrieking, table-thumping and general spilling of Rioja. That is completely different, declares Spanish officialdom, citing a 15th-century legal technicality. You only need to spend a few days, as I have this week, on both sides of the strait to realise Spain isnt just in breach of both the letter and spirit of European law with its current harassment of Gibraltar. Its also guilty of the most brazen double standards. In short, Spain wants to have its paella, eat it, get someone else to pay for it and thump anyone who argues. In Ceuta, you cant move for Spanish flags, Spanish road signs and Spanish police. It is impossible to find a single one of the 78,000 citizens who believes they should be Moroccan. And, interestingly, all seem sympathetic to Gibraltar. If Gibraltar goes back to Spain, then well have to go back to Morocco, says Ismail Abdel Krim, 42, a mechanic (of Moroccan descent) from the poor district of Los Rosales Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/a...standards-refuse-surrender.html#ixzz2cKts2wHY
If a war did break out it will make a mockery of both Britain and Spain since they signed the NATO agreement. Allies don't go to war. It would make a mockery of both countries in the eyes of all Europe and especially America who is the main partner in the agreement. Breaking the NATO and EU agreement to this extent is just unthinkable. Only some extremist party coming to power would do that. If it ever does happen you can expect a response just as serious... That might be the world peacekeeper, America, coming to Western Europe to calm things down, most likely with ships and strategic bombers and you do not want that. The one who opens fire first will become a Venezuela or a North Korea of the world and that is unlikely to be tolerated here in Europe. If you think a war with Spain is realistic, then just as realistic are some Normandy landings reversed. This time it won't be the Germans who are the bad guys. They quite likely would be one of the allies this time. Remember that Britain is the only last major power of the world that has not been americanized yet. Japan has, Germany/ France have, all Europe etc (don't mention China, I'm not talking about communists that arose postwar). If a stir really would happen here in Europe after all this time of peace, you know how eager USA always is to get involved, one way or another, just give them a reason.
Spain's Big Ditch Navy vs. the British fleet... Gibraltar: Royal Navy repels fishing boat armada after 'invasion' Sunday 18 August 2013 > Fishermen stage protest over concrete reef as Gibraltar's chief minister says 'Hell will freeze over before barrier is removed'
If Spain keeps sabre-rattling over Gibraltar and keeps causing strife for its citizens then conflict may break out. Spain will then be defeated and willd eserve everything it gets. America won't intervene, just like it didn't in the Falklands war. Or, if it did, it'll join the action late on, as it did in both world wars. That's rubbish. If Britain declares war on Spain because of Spain's despicable actions then Britain will not become a North Korea. Britain will have done the right thing to protect British territory and British citizens. The rest of Europe can go swivel as far as I'm concerned. They won't do anything anyway. With the exception of France and Britain no European country has any worthwile military power. They don't concern me. Spain would be the bad guys in any war between Britain and Spain right now over Gibraltar. And to say that such a war would cause another Normandy Landings is just SLIGHTLY exaggerated, I think. The war would be like the Falklands War. It'd solely be between the two main protagonists and last just a few months - or maybe just a few weeks - before the bad guys (Spain) are defeated and humiliated. Rubbish. Where was America in 1914 or 1939? Where was it during the Falklands? Even in Libya there was no sign of America.
HMS Westminster arrives in Gibraltar a day after Spanish fishermen’s stand-off with Royal Navy after going into British waters Warship seen approaching port of Gibraltar at around 7.15am GMT Day after fishermen protested over artificial reef at British outpost They say the concrete blocks ruin traditional fishing grounds By Kerry Mcdermott 19th August 2013 Daily Mail Royal Navy warships arrived in Gibraltar this morning amid a diplomatic row with Spain over fishing around the British outpost. The frigate HMS Westminster was seen approaching the port of Gibraltar at around 7.15am this morning, flanked by two smaller ships. It sailed towards the Mediterranean enclave the day after Spanish fishermen in a fleet of almost 40 boats sailed into British waters to demand an artificial reef made of concrete blocks - which they say ruins traditional fishing grounds - be removed. Although British, Spanish, and Gibraltarian authorities have said the Navy's arrival at the British overseas territory is for long-scheduled exercises, some in Spain regard it as provocative. The HMS Westminster arrived in the harbour at Gibraltar this morning for what authorities insist are long-planned exercises Long-scheduled exercises: The Royal Navy warship is seen sailing into the harbour with the Rock of Gibraltar visible in the background Gibraltar's creation of the artificial reef with concrete blocks, which Spanish fishermen say blocks their access to certain waters, has prompted Spain to toughen its border checks, leading to long queues for workers and tourists entering Gibraltar. Spain claims the territory, which has a population of just 30,000, which it ceded to Britain by treaty 300 years ago. Warm greeting: Gibraltarians waved Union flags this morning as HMS Westminister sailed into the harbour In today's German Sueddeutsche Zeitung, Gibraltar Chief Minister Fabian Picardo accused the Spanish government of creating conflict to distract attention from corruption allegations against the ruling People's Party. 'In the 19th century, gunboats were used to do politics,' he said. 'Today our aim is to improve the living conditions of our citizens by means of cooperation. 'Unfortunately, Spanish politicians are currently bringing the situation to a head and therefore making things worse for their own citizens in the surrounding regions.' Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...-Navy-going-British-waters.html#ixzz2cPb5FZch
This is my favourite bit of that article, which highlights how ludicrous Spain is being: In the past few days, though, Spain has come up with an entirely different excuse. And it is one that is gathering sympathy and support in Spain. ‘This is a violation of EU and international law!’ thundered the Spanish foreign ministry, following this month’s construction of an artificial reef by the Gibraltar authorities. Spain's Prime Minister Mariano Rajoy declared he was joining forces with Argentina's Malvinas-mad President Cristina Kirchner to form a Brit-bashing double act at the UN Supported by Greenpeace no less, the reef has been built to help replenish and protect dwindling fish stocks. Angrier than a ton of beef charging down the cobbles of Pamplona, Mr Rajoy and his ministers have railed at this ‘attack on the environment’. Though Spain is happy to pump the contents of 10,000 lavatories into the path of Gibraltarian swimmers, it professes outrage that 73 blocks of hollowed-out concrete should be dumped on the ocean floor. Worse still, it claims, this is jeopardising the livelihoods of countless Spanish fishermen who earn their living in these waters. Compensation, Britain, por favor! On the Spanish side of the border, I find considerable local sympathy for these claims, even from Spaniards who depend on Gibraltar for their livelihood. There is just one problem with the Spanish argument. It is complete and utter codswallop. For I find that over the last few years, the Spanish department of agriculture and fisheries has installed no less than 25 identical artificial reefs along this Andalucian coastline. What’s more, it received an EU grant for three-quarters of the £11 million cost. ‘The only difference between their reefs and ours,’ says Gibraltar Chief Minister Mr Picardo, ‘is that the EU paid for the Spanish reefs. We paid for our own.’ What’s more, the only sort of fishing affected by the new Gibraltar reef is raking the sea bed — which is illegal anyway. And only one Spanish fishing boat is known to fish this area. So, here we have it. Spain is punishing 30,000 Brits and thousands of Spanish workers for Gibraltar creating a marine sanctuary — just like its own — which may stop one Spanish fisherman from breaking the law. It is beyond a joke. It is worse than ‘sabre-rattling’, as Mr Picardo described it recently. It is pure banditry. And it is entirely right that the British Government has finally ignored the feeble, hand-wringing, ‘don’t-upset-the-Spanish’ wing of the Foreign Office. Instead, David Cameron has told Spain that Britain will not tolerate these threats, that Gibraltar has an inviolable right to self-determination, and that Britain is studying Spain’s behaviour for potential breaches of EU law.
That was just a metaphor. Of course things today are much more high tech than that. It's just that ANOTHER WAR IN EUROPE is sure to get many involved, very likely the US too and their position on this issue might not favor Spain but nonetheless neither Britain. Don't mention the Falklands and Libya. That was a different matter. This is Europe. Your squirmishes and display of strength with the less developed corners of the world does not concern America. Also forget 1914 and 1941. That is ancient history. Just look at how it intervened in Yugoslavia in the 90s. My country borders its remains. I live 60 km from the border and I still remember the night bombings, the flashes on the horizon and the ground shaking that I saw as a child. Fighter planes, helicopters going back and forth would wake you up all night. Visiting my grandparents who live a few km from the border was a guarantee of sleepless nights. Antiaircraft batteries and prolonged sessions of bombings, windows shaking all night and all day long. At night you kept hearing people screaming from over the border. USA doesn't hesitate when it comes to Europe, much less two of the main economies. Hypothetically, a Spanish-British war would not be a short one. Spain is not Argentina. Both countries are big and resourceful. Less sophisticated as it may be, the Spanish air force would be something that your island would be very vulnerable to. Many civilian casualties. Better don't even think about this. People in the UK are packed per square meter. ALL your economy is wide spread on the limited surface of the island waiting to be bombed. You don't need precision bombing for the UK. Just make sure you don't drop the bomb in the water. Before the war Yugoslavia was among the biggest economies in Eastern Europe. I've been to Serbia recently. Now it looks as if time has stopped there. Everything is dead. Corruption, poverty, urban decay. Bulgaria and Romania are promise lands compared to it.
So they slow traffic, the UK sends Fregates and it's Spain who's acting "disproportionately"..... Hmmmmmm.
I don't think that you've been following the situation. Spain has violated British territory with members of the state in the form of a police boat which fired at a Citizen and Spanish warplanes had also violated our airspace. The HMS Westminster was already scheduled to go through Gibraltar. It was sent ahead of schedule due to Spain's actions not because of it.
