Time for the U.S. to Colonize the Moon and Mars.

Where's the profit incentive?

 

At least someone else on this forum understands that Mars and the Moon might as well not even exist until we master cheap orbital flight and build a permanent space station to service microgravity-only spacecraft.

 

How exactly are we going to terraform soil that is mostly iron oxide? How many oxygen producing plants do you know of that can survive in powdered rust?

 

Can they be extracted cost-efficiently?

 

While I completely agree humankind is inadequately prepared at this point to survive long term outside the planet we were born into, these last few decades have shown great potential between technological advancement and commercial space growth. A logical move would be to use these assets to take advantage of even more available on the lunar surface. Over time it is possible if not likely, the human drive for exploration would create an infrastructure that allowed for manufacture of many aspects of further exploration, and likely many we have yet to foresee.
Mars is a logical choice in the next step of our little "Trip", and may very well provide even more opportunity....there are great possibilities in our future, should we manage to use them.

 

The issue doesn't seem to be the Iron content of Martian soil, but rather it's lack of nitrogen and other compounds necessary for botanical life to thrive.

Currently, there are technologies on Earth that, if applied on Mars would render a small amount of Martian soil arable. I'm referring to algal agriculture, which needs very little to survive and thrive, and can be used for other things, such as plastics and biofuels. Algae can also be mixed into Martian soil as a fertilizer once the Algae has died.

 

If Humanity ever does colonize space, it will not be Big Government that accomplishes the task, but refugees seeking escape from the Taxation, Dogma, and Insults of Big Government.

The brave colonists who fled the tyranny and chaos of Europe the found the original 13 American Colonies did so to seek FREEDOM from the Big Government of their era.

They were private enterprises, operated on speculation, with only minimum government support.

Yes, they did use the Era's Military Technology, in the form of Cannon, Muskets, and Caravel Sailing Ships, but that tech was not initially provided by the host colonist government, but rather it was purchased with investor funding from government war surplus sales.

-

 

Try to change a Tire on a heavily used off road vehicle using a remote controlled robot with a radio-command delay time of 6 minutes.

Forget trying to do it on Mars or even the Moon. Try to do it from a controller in Norad in Colorado, on a HumVee in Afghanistan!

What the hell do you do when a nut strips out, or has been scored by a rock until the socket doesn't fit over the bent up nut?

What the hell do you do when the flat tire has sunk the frame of the vehicle axle deep in dust?

What the hell do you do when cold causes the ratchet spur to shear off, but your robot cannot handle a simple wrench and improvised breaker bar?

There is no question that the effort should be greatly augmented by remote controlled robotics.

But there is no substitute for the flexibility and innovation of a Human Engineer.

-

 

On the issue of Water:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lunar_soil

View attachment 23641

View attachment 23642

It should also be noted that the solar wind has very large amounts of just plain Hydrogen.

You do not need to find Water.

You need to release O2 from Rock, in the process of making needed Metal, and combine it with released or solar wind captured hydrogen, and synthesize the water you need.

You're not going to get enough water to have swimming pools and large scale aqua-culture projects.

You can Synthesize enough water to provide for a small colony of Robot Support Techs/Engineers, and their sanitary, dietary, and hydroponics needs.

And the energy required is practically free and everywhere at hand.

-

 

Suicide mission.

 

Perhaps, but human exploration has always been a dangerous business.

 

Mars colonization today is unpractical, too difficult for the pay off, and frankly unneeded.

Mars colonization in 50 years, when we have a Lunar Colony with magnetic rail heavy mass launch, and a L5 Free Fall Assembly and Support facility is an entirely different matter.

-

 

Where do you get the massive amounts of electricity needed to do this? Solar is not nearly enough. You'd need to build a solar farm the size of Texas on the Moon to support this kind of industrial operation.

 

You're either ignorant or lying.

Before you made this post, did you even look up the energy requirements of a smelter or chemical synthesis plant?

Do you know how much surface area there is on the moon?

Do you know how many watts per square meter are derived from even crummy old solar voltaic on the moon, without blue scattering atmosphere to get in the way, compared to the same solar voltaic cell on earth?

Have you ever heard of Cross-Terminator Solar Thermal?

Do you have any idea how many watts of power is used by the average GPS or Comm satellite, provided by Car sized solar panels?

You make a statement like this, without consulting any data, or running ANY calculations?

Seriously!?

A Steely Eyed Missile-Man and potential Lunar Colonist material you clearly are NOT!

-

 

We're not talking about a single smelter or chemical plant. We're talking about an industrial level operation: drilling and smelting rock, harvesting hydrogen, producing water on a scale necessary for a mining operation big enough to extract minerals from the Moon cost efficiently.

That is not achievable any time soon and it certainly isn't achievable with solar power. You need nuclear power for a Moon base.

 

One little problem , the Moon and Mars are already colonized. Look up Mars and Moon anomalies. Oh, and there's that little problem of how to get through the Van Allen Radiation Belt without killing our Astronauts. Please don't start in with Apollo Missions ,beyond a shadow of a doubt they were all FAKED. Look at all the evidence !

 

True enough, but you could have sent a new robot Instead of the astronaut. Maybe even 12 new robots for the space he will take up.

 

LOL

BULL!

Again, did you look up a single fact, or run a single calculation!

You make bold statements such as :"That is not achievable any time soon and it certainly isn't achievable with solar power. You need nuclear power for a Moon base. "

But in reality, you're just spouting garbage and haven't the slightest basis in facts, specs, and figures to back that statement up!

I've spent the better part of the last 15 years writing extremely technical and scientifically accurate computer simulation "Edutainment" games on the issue of Space Colonization.

I DO KNOW how many Watts per meter we can expect from seven different types/technologies of solar voltaic cells in the Earth Orbit range from Sol, and have even run projections on the power from the same at all the other planets in our solar system and several nearby star as well.

http://www.greenoptimistic.com/2010/12/21/solar-cell-efficiency-near-space/#.UolP2xCIqos

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_cell_efficiency

http://cleantechnica.com/2013/09/05...ifespan-improved-with-ion-conducting-polymer/


I DO KNOW how many watts of power would be needed by the hydraulic pumps operating a Lunar version of an Alpine Miner ( which I used to work on/around in Nevada underground military testing) and chemical synthesis plants ( of which I have a working prototype to make Gasoline from air, water and electricity in my Garage)

http://www2.sandvik.com/sandvik/9082/Internet/S002630.nsf/Alldocs/Products*5CContinuous*2Dmining*and*tunneling*machines*5CRoadheaders**2D*tunnel*miners*2AAlpine*Miner*AM*85*2DP/$file/AM_85-P.pdf

I DO KNOW about Cross-Terminator Solar Thermal Generation, and how full use of the Sol Spectrum is much more efficient than solar voltaic, which only uses Blue wavelengths and above.

You make silly statements which ANY competent four year engineering grad could shoot down in minutes.

In space, at the range of Earth from Sol, getting energy is NOT the problem, avoiding unwanted effects of too much of the wrong kinds of energy, hitting the wrong things is the Problem!

-

 

If that's so, then why does the U.S. Military use Infantry or manned Tanks and Planes?

Have you ever worked as a Military Support Technician?

I have... I stayed pretty damn busy doing critical things all day everyday, that never could have been done by a Robot.

-

 

Not sending them to space where storage volume comes at a premium.

No. Have you ever worked as an astronaut?

You make it sound like these guys don't cost big money in training. All this to for a robot years away. Just send a few more. Wait until robot technology is better etc..

 

I have worked for 1000s of hours at altitudes which required pressurized breathing helmets and special protective flight suits.

We were not above the earths atmosphere, but we were at altitudes which would have killed us in tens of seconds without our gear.

I have had "the bends" or nitrogen bubbles forming in joints and under the skin from too many repeated rapid depressurization cycles when some particular gear malfunctioned on a particular flight.

I have flown many times high enough to see non-twinkling stars in a black sky, with the sun in the middle of the view. I have seen the curvature of the earth.



I have also operated "Remote Robots" used for removing buried land mines and other unexploded ordinance.

I have experienced the irritation and dysfunction caused by remote comm delay and mechanical breakdowns in limits in motion, and been forced to push the "Stupid Robot" out of the way to get the damn job done.

-

 

Mars One plans to do it very soon. They're taking applications for the first human settlers on mars. Can they do it?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n4tgkyUBkbY

 

At this time, why bother with Mars? Another Nationalist Publicity, Brinksmanship Stunt? Put a feather in Obama's cap?

We've more than enough work in Orbit, L5 and the Moon for any foreseeable future.

-

 

Mars One is not an American inititive, although some American companies are already contracted to participate.

 

The best way to go about Martian exploration is to do a public-private partnership. Yes, it would cost taxpayers in many countries quite a large sum, and ideally, it wouldn't be undertaken until all nations on Earth have a balanced budget, but since I'm a realist, and nowhere near starry-eyed, I say wait about 15-20 years. There will be some great opportunities for the experiments to be undertaken on Mars to be able to greatly benefit life on Earth.

Wow.....so an idea that has gone back to the time before Obama was even born is suddenly Obama's pet project? Next, you're going to be saying that Obama's responsible for America turning away the passengers of the MS St. Louis. Seriously, stop drinking the GOP Kool-Aid every time Rush rings his little bell. It's quite unbecoming for a human to act so Pavlovian.