Ukraine war talks start now, Trump says after Putin call

What I was referring to was, that Trump can of course negotiate with Russia, he can do that without Europe, they can both agree that Europe has to finance the whole rebuilding of the Ukraine, but that doesnt mean the EU will accept that and pay for that. As far as I heard Trump wants to negotiate that the EU has to pay for the rebuilding of the Ukraine plus send troops there, but its an affront and its on purpose and it encourages Putin of course to a certain level that his strategy to divide his enemies can be successful. It lowers the chances of success.

 

or not....trying to defend Putin as a rational actor at this late stage is rather like looking through the open gate and watching the bolted horse turn round a give you the metaphorical finger....just to emphasize the extent of ones folly

 

'Being slaughtered in the short term' is meaningless. 700,000 have died attacking
the Surovikin Line and other defenses. Contrary to your 'short term' claim I will make a
counter claim that they will remain dead long after the war is over.

 

playing with numbers again.....anyway less of the fantasy.....back to reality...and to think that if only Putin wasn't a dysfunctional klepto-Czar wannabe....sheesh.....we wouldn't even need to be making up numbers....we wouldn't even need to have this thread or even be discussing this miserable war started by that mad f*cking crook in the Kremlin......

 

OMG, hold your horses.

The US has intervened in favour of liberty on numerous occasions and it was always a struggle between isolationists and interventionists and they always intervened when someone from Europe or anywhere else in the world pushed too hard. Sometimes it mingles with their interests and you can argue if they gave Cuba that much more liberty than the Spanish colonial powers, but it is what it is and it was way more than WWII.

I agree that running away from NATO, an alliance that was build to rely on each other, is a kind of betrayal, but that didnt come out of nowhere and Western-Europe (that accusation doesnt doesnt include the Three Seas Initiative). You can make the argument that Angela Merkel, who for decades heard friendly reminders by all US government officials that Germany must fulfill its duties, making a fool out of all of them by nodding while doing nothing over 16 years is way more of a traitor than Trump if you wanna use terms like that. Minsk I and Minsk II made clear how much Western Europe - that doesnt refer to Merkel only - cared about Ukraine, if you are realist, you have to say "nothing" here. And Olaf Scholz continued her policy - its maybe not seen that way internationally, but both coalition partners say the same about him, if it was up to Scholz and his social democrats would not have eben sent the 5000 helmets at the beginning of the conflict.

If you wanna accuse Trump of giving a **** about the suffering of the Ukrainian people suffering, etc. feel free, but I insist he cared much more about Ukraine than all Western-European leaders combined. Without his first term its possible Ukraine would not be anymore nowadays. Its speculation what would have been happened under a Clinton administration, but lets put it that way, with an Angela Merkel or an Emmanuel Macron leading the US in that time the Ukraine would not be anymore today. Their resources given to mafioso oligarchs and Russian orcs running around killing the male population while raping the female.

So, before you accuse the US that it betrays European values, when it comes to Western Europe, maybe you should start by demanding that it will find back to its own values. Germany's values after the last chancellor half-way worth to be called a political leader was voted out in 1998 were "lets the US do the defence, we will morally lesson them and while those idiots fight off attacks on our democracies, we buy cheap gas from the attackers". That was the line of the German foreign policy. And it still is until Scholz is voted out in a few days.

Not sure, if I see the chances positive. Our - most likely - next chancellor could be inclined towards it, but as he didnt have the guts to emancipate from your the woke-green MSM media he had to swear he will never work together with the right wing party, the social democrats have the guarantee to be in every government, they will block it. Even with a majority it would not be a short road, they would have to change the Grundgesetz (something like our consitution) to allow them to make more debts, but as he doesnt have the guts to give the MSM the middle finger like Trump, the social democrats will nip that in the bud. What a real statesman a poltical leader of class would do in his situation is trying to go into a minority government fight the fight against the left which was pampered over the years by state funding and money and their journalists, stop the flood of Islamists first with the right wing. Afterwards he would be left with two alternatives, offer the right wingers a coalition if they let go their pro-Putin and anti-US propaganda and go all in for re-arming or reach out to the Green Party who will be pissed and first say "we dont talk with fascists" to try to go into re-arming. None of the steps is easy to make, but it would be imo the right approach. I dont see it happening, social democrats will block or a least weaken every politics against Russia and as long as Putin has his social democrats in the government, he wont have to fear anything from Germany.
Your demand is 100% right, but what should I say we Germans as a collective are what we are and vote what we vote, if I like it individually or not. When I look around in Western Europe, it doesnt seem like our ignorance in Germany of the situation is worse than those of the others. Our handling of the situation is pathetic, but in comparison to other Western European Nations its not even sub-standard.

You can argue if that is suicidal, you cannot argue that the dollar dominance is too extreme, that anywhere near in our lifetimes we could see a shift in favour of the Yuan towards the dollar. There is the dollar with which more than 40% of the global trade is done and there is the Euro with whitch around 20% is done. The Euro is the clear number 2 with nothing coming even close to it. The dominance of the dollar over the Euro is too extreme to see a turning point, but if you wanna establish another currency as a rival there is only one, the Euro.

And if its not about the rivalry to the dollar I would suggest rupees with lower political risks implied.

Agreed 100%, too little too slow.

To be fair and despite all pessimism before, that started. However, if you really think the threat are the US not Russia, China or Iran, stop consuming these ******* media. All this woke bullshit had its part in transforming Westerrn Europe into this sluggish infantile block it is today. And Trump is the US trial to break free from the very same attitude and thats exactly the same development I can see coming in Germany. We have a right wing party and instead of normalizing it the other parties are so in love of their virtue signalling that they will never talk with them, they act so stupid that they dont even realize they missed the point where there could have been a Melonification or Le Penization of the party, when they acted smart. That point may have passed already.

As long as no reasonable man or woman have the guts to fight it, there is at one point no other alternative other than a Trump. Yet, I dont see the basis for all your accusations towards Trump. Biden gave the Ukraine enough that Russia could not demolish them, but not enough that they could end this war. Its was an absolutely cynical approach, you can argue from his position he acted almost as pathetic as Merkel or Macron. When giving the circumstances, I see Trump as the more reliable partner of the Ukraine than Western European (I am always referring to them, Norther Europe with Sweden and Finland is a different topic, Three Seas states are a very very different topic) leaders or the Biden administration until now at least.


We know from his first term that Trump is bubbling with very "creative" ideas of which a lot turn out to be unworkable. Yes, he threatened EU states, he threatened Canada, he threatened Mexico. Thats his aproach in negotiations, we know that.

Miss Scheinbaum gave a perfect example how to handle it, all respect to her for that, before that I thought "feminist foreign policy" means just "incompetent stupid and irresponsible foreign policy", now I see that there are at least exceptions to this rule, as she gave a perfect example how to deal with these situations. A bit more of the Scheinbaum approach to straighten things out before you declare the US as an enemy and parking huge loads of foreign currency reserves into the Yuan.

 

lol. Are these European counties even our allies anymore? We pour billions upon billions into the war in Ukraine and we get nothing but ingratitude and scorn for it. If we get too involved, that's a problem, but if they decide we are not giving enough they come to our political boards and trash us here. So from my perspective you should fend for yourselves. We do not live in Europe. You do, so start acting like it. There seems to be nothing we can do that will please these people so what do you do?

 

This is right.
Europe should stand on it's own two feet and be left alone by America.
As should everywhere else that America occupies or expresses an interest in, like Gaza, Cuba, Panama, Canada, Greenland, Denmark and other places and bases.
It is true that you get scorn, but to expect gratitude is laughable.
Gratitude for what exactly?

 

You don't think we deserve a little gratitude for all we spend on your security? What do you ever do for us? If our military bases over there offends Europeans, we'd be more than happy to bring them home.

 

I think this is frankly military reality, despite all the aid we've given them the Ukrainians have not been able to stop the Russians slowly advancing never mind taking back the territory they've already lost. I predict the Russians will hold on to what they've already conquered, that Ukraine will remain independent allowing both sides to save face.

 

Eastern Europe - the best of the best
Western Euroe - principally yes, but lazy allies, not willing to bring in a lot into a friendship

Some leftist countries like Spain or Ireland, no, they act like a Trojan horse in NATO and the West overall. Left-wing governments the center-left governments dont address bc of feeling of solidarity with them, they need just a slap in the face. Spain is one of the most valuable assets of China, Russia, Iran and formost Venezuela, Cuba and other enemies of the West in general and the US especially. Its why they mostly support Ukraine with warm words, but dont make any efforts to increase their military budget. If you read my comment you may have noticed how disappointed I am by my own country, but there is at least no doubt its on the side of the US. Spain under its current government is on the side of the enemies of the US. And the money to increase the budget would be there, but they wanna make themselves a reputation in the global South and give billions to UNRWA to support the war of Hamas against Israel.

Oh, while Germany at least stopped the shameless gas imports from Russia at least after the war, Spain increased its gas imports from Russia. There is a better Spain and hopefully they will reconquer the government again, but Pedro Sanchez needs a good "talking to" by Trump to get back in line again, until hopefully conservatives or - if they fail - the more right wing VOX will correct the ongoing issue. Maybe until then they need a bit of Trump's South Africa treatment, another supporter of the genocide Russia committs in Ukraine that was overdue for an embargo.


https://www.europarl.europa.eu/doceo/document/P-9-2024-001309_EN.html
https://www.aa.com.tr/en/europe/spain-rejects-israel-s-unrwa-ban-says-it-puts-ceasefire-deal-in-danger/3466804#:~:text=In its statement, Spain called,financial aid to the organization.
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...-s-hand-in-spain-s-diplomacy-sparks-criticism

 

Neither Russia or the US should think they can dictate to Ukraine they accept a puppet Russian government in Ukraine and Russia occupying two chunks in the middle of Ukraine and all of Crimea.

All Trump has done is side with Putin and demand Ukraine surrender. He has also created a deliberate war with his Nato allies, all of Western Europe and Canada all because they are in Putin's way on Ukraine.

I love all this talk discussing Ukraine as if Ukrainians have no say in their future and we let Putin and Trump sign their lives away like Stalin and Hitler did with Poland.

Netanyahu in Israel should look long and hard at how Trump has sold out Ukraine. That is some "ally" he thinks cares about Israel.

As a Canadian it is a sad day to see Trump not even hide his being controlled by Putin and using Musk to sabotage the US for him. Pathetic. Now Canada and Europe must stand even closer together in trade and military alliances. France has stood up. Canada is trying to. We need Germany and UK now to step up. Europe closer to Canada in trade especially with gas and oil does not need Russia or the US.

 

Ireland is not in NATO.

 

You mean its as odd as all these comments that predict that Trump will surrender to Putin before the peace talk didnt even started?

Afaik the German government critisized Trump harshly, you may not have even noticed because nobody gives a damn, they will be voted out in a few days. Principially Canada could even join the EU, but I bet despite all the talk about Trump, deep down they know they dont want EU bureaucrats blocking Canadas economic development. It could also be that the EU treaties there would have been some paragraphs to be changed, but that will not be the decisive problem. Anyway, symbolic gestures aside even if you guys were in the EU that would not even take away the fact that the US is and will always be your most important trading partner. I doubt that anyone is in the way for more trade with the EU, but it will not fix the problem you and the EU has with Trump.

 

I don't know what plans Trump has, but he has no control over anything beyond the amount of aid the U.S. is willing to provide Ukraine and what cost and conditions will be connected to that aid. If he focuses on just that I'll be perfectly content. Beyond that, it's up to Russia and Ukraine to come to terms or continue fighting - we're not in a position to impose a settlement on either one of them.

That being said, I've always believed that Putin's revanchist objective heading into the 2022 invasion was seizing a land bridge between Russia and the Crimean Peninsula via eastern Ukraine. Now that he's achieved his objective he'll be willing to negotiate along those lines. With that in mind, I don't see how the Ukrainians will reacquire any of the land they have lost since 2014 through these negotiations, so about all they can hope to accomplish with these talks is a ceasefire now and NATO membership down the road. I could be wrong, but I think the only way Ukraine reacquires any territory is on the battlefield, and even then their prospects don't look terribly good. The Russkies may be laughably inept at conducting offensive operations against a determined foe possessing state-of-the-art weaponry, but they're quite capable of fighting an old school defensive war of attrition akin to that of World War I.

Personally, I think the Ukrainians should keep fighting and we should sell them the arms they need provided that those sales don't compromise the readiness of our own military. However, war is advice I am reluctant to give to anyone.

The Europeans have to be at the table. This war is in their neighborhood, and if the U.S. wants the Europeans to play a leading role in defending Ukraine and their own interests - and they should - they have to play a leading role in the negotiations.

 

For Ukraine to remain autonomous and with a reasonable sized military
was Russia's advice.

So that would be a win for Russia and therefore totally unacceptable
to the Biden Administration.

The Biden Admin is now gone but a surprising amount of the public
still believe it's extensive lies, including Biden's claim on Feb 24 2022
that Russia had begun an invasion of Ukraine, even though the war
had been going on for some time, and was started by the US, but that's
history and nobody cares about history.

 

Dude - That ain’t history, that’s bullshit, and no one cares about bullshit.

Vlad the Invader started this war because he wanted the Black Sea Fleet’s base at Sevastopol, the Crimean Peninsula, and a land bridge to Mother Rashka. He took the first two while that spineless cuck Obama was in office, and then he finished the job while that other spineless cuck Biden was in office.

Those are the facts, and here we are.

 

Europe needs to increase its defense funding anyway because the US is no longer a reliable partner. While the Ukraine war rages on, put that money towards helping Ukraine. The security guarantee could be ultimately provided by Europe once Russia is exhausted enough. I think Ukraine should be willing to part with the most pro-Russian eastern region/s to end the war. Perhaps that should be balanced by Russia helping with rebuilding all of Ukraine and resettling pro-Russian Ukrainians to the pro-Russian area.

I think the bottom line is Russia absolutely feels like it needs something to show for the war, even if its a token gain of territory. And Ukraine absolutely feels like it needs a security guarantee, so Russia doesn't just rest and then reinvade. Of course, the strongest possible guarantees would be to become a part of the EU or NATO.

 

Kouchner says Russia issuing passports in Crimea
October 30, 2008

French Foreign Minister Bernard Kouchner said on Tuesday that Moscow was issuing Russian passports in Crimea, in southern Ukraine, where Kiev says it will not renew Russia’s Black Sea fleet base.

“We all know that they are handing out Russian passports over there,” Kouchner said in an interview with Kommersant, according to a French translation of his comments written in Russian.

Moscow is in conflict with Kiev over its future in Crimea. Ukrainian authorities want the Black Sea fleet to leave its Sevastopol base when the lease runs out in 2017.

Kouchner told the newspaper that a “danger exists” that Russia might try to make advances in Crimea after the success of its military operation in Georgia in August...

Back in August, Kouchner said that after Moscow’s intervention in Georgia’s breakaway region of South Ossetia and Abkazia, Russia could have “other objectives,” including “Crimea, Ukraine and Moldova.”

Russia said it went into South Ossetia to defend its citizens, after issuing Russian passports to South Ossetians since 2002, as justification for sending Russian troops.

“Georgia was then attacked. You showed all signs of being prepared. The Russian forces appeared like a miracle at the right moment at the frontier,” Kouchner told the newspaper...

https://www.taipeitimes.com/News/world/archives/2008/10/30/2003427352

 

I'll somewhat agree here Talon....but afaic, this is just a stepping stone here for Putin. If he gets this area(which still isn't under 100% full positive control by the Kremlin), he'll be looking for more as soon as he can re arm, re organize, his forces.

I'm sure he's learned some lessons here. He wasn't anticipating this sort of resistance back in February 2022 I suspect. He was banking on much of the population welcoming him with flowers and champagne and the Kyiv "junta" fleeing outta dodge as fast as they can.

Riding in with 150000 or so Russian conscripts and vehicles with fuel tanks half filled with gas was a bone head move on a country with 45 million. I don't think he'll make that mistake a second time....this was a painful lesson for him.

He won't stop there after that....Poland and Baltics are on his mind too.

Belarus is in his back pocket, Moldova will collapse in 20 mins or do. After that?....use ones imagination I guess.

 

Europe is utterly dependent on the USA. As the US moves towards a de facto alliance with Putin they need to act fast. They have to grovel and beg the USA on the one hand and move away from it on the other. Now Putin has scored a victory he will regroup, rebuild and based on current European performance, easily win a war to Annexe the Baltic States and possibly win a war that enacts a Nazi style invasion of Western Europe. The USA holds the power to humiliate and exploit Europe and to Trump this is much easier than fighting a war against strongmen. He’s a huckster remember, an incompetent businessman who would have done better investing his inheritance in a tracker than what he did with it. Now of course he’s a kleptocrat just like Putin. He’s a guy who doesn’t pay his bills or honour his word. Americans elected him knowing this.

 

Deal. Do it. Now!

 

And Trump, the hard man who the whole world is afraid of?

His solution is to surrender.

It’s the cheeseburger eating surrender monkeys show! If Obama and Biden were foolish in their hesitancy, the new King of America has trumped this with his own extreme cowardice. And if he can beat up some weak Europeans at the same time to look “hard” then so be it.

These are the new American gangster values. That Americans voted for. Never forget. Their alliances, guarantees, promises, flattery, treaties, trade deals… they are ultimately worthless. America wants to be isolated? America needs to get its dearest wish.

 

To some extend yes, but you cannot be cherry picking. Its mostly the US which dictated the post war order for Western Europe after WWII and it was to the benefit of the US even more than for Europe, although I would call it win-win. Maybe West-Germany is a special case as it was the enemy in the war, but take this example, just as with Japan in the beginning for didnt allow these nations to have an army at all and gave guarantees for their safety. At this moment its simply a duty, nothing you can pretend to do out of noble motivations. To just withdraw from obligations of alliances is not ok, but here its exaggerated massively as if Trump wants to ally with Putin, which I consider to be hysteria. Plus both sides can be blamed, everyone who tried to convince Merkel of the necessity of a higher military budget in a dencet manner, Bush, Obama and Biden were all ignored by her. Its not ok what she did in that respect as well.

Anyway, Russia is a problem nobody can ignore. You can argue there is an ocean between you, but as they paid bounties for killed US soldiers to Taliban they will continue these tactics. Terrorism, bounties for killed US soldiers worldwide, sabotage, espionage, all kind of hybrid warfare will hit you as well. For Germany here its even riskier to ignore, but even when the wall of Poland and the Three Sea states and the Nordic front will prove to be too much to take for Russia, we will be targeted by all kind of hybrid warfare mentioned above.

Nevertheless I dont see Trump ignoring the problem or even lining up with Putin. His motto "drill drill drill" is obviously a move to cut into Russia vital artery and let them bleed out. He is obviously not planning to remove sanctions. However there are some problems with his threats to let his allies down, a consequence could be that a new nuclear armsrace can start like we have never seen before. First nations like Japan, South Korea, Poland or Germany will start, after the first batch of countries the programs and the material can be massively cheaper and we run into an age in which nuclear weapons are not the weapon of the rich and powerful anymore, but every Djibouti will have its own arsenal just in case the Huthis go completely crazy or Ethiopia gets too ambitous. Trump is going to give up control over the order of this world and the leadership position of the West if he is serious about everything. Some of his moves are indeed dangerous, if he really goes for them.