Was killing Baghdadi a betrayal ?

You're trying to say that it was an official ally partnership.

 

It was unofficial - the admin did not want people to know that we allied Al Qaeda and ISIS.

 

When did we form that alliance?

 

The Islamic State in Syria did not exist prior to 2013. It was formed when various radical Islamist Jihadist groups coalesced into an Islamic State once they had taken over most of Syria.

This was a covert operation so we don't know exactly when we started arming the Islamist Jihadists - but we were arming them at least as early as early 2012 - according to this declassified Defense Intelligence Agency document.

http://www.judicialwatch.org/wp-con...12-DOD-Release-2015-04-10-final-version11.pdf

 

Hello, G

My explanation is so mundane that expect you'll dismiss it, as would many others on the site.

I just think Obama truly believed that the Arab Spring was a good thing - "good" being defined by the American ethos of justice and democracy and a desire for freedom. I think this was a bias on his part that was unshakable. I think his respect for the religion of Islam and Islamic people colored his thinking. I think his bias blinded him.

Add to that the influence of people like Hillary Clinton and so many in the Washington Establishment who truly believe that the U.S. can and should mold the world into what we want it to be by force.

And so, my rather mundane opinion is that he was simply wrong. It was a blunder, as was the war waged against Libya (for much the same reasons).

I do not believe that a title - like POTUS or Secretary of State or Chief of Staff, etc, etc - exempts that person from being wrong or blundering. Many do believe it, however. They believe that everything these leaders do is for some unseen, diabolical reason, and all outcomes are a foregone conclusion because they never err.

I do not believe that Obama deliberately armed and trained Al Qaeda/ISIS. I believe he did arm and train them, but I don't think he did it deliberately. I think it was a blunder. He may well have received reports in the early going that there were Al Qaeda linked groups taking advantage of the U.S. support, but I think he clung to his bias towards the goodness of freedom-loving "good" rebels. Thus, we heard him refer to ISIS as the "JV team", a minor or insignificant footnote. The meteoric rise of ISIS in Syria was not foreseen by Obama, in my opinion. And when it all spun out of control, and ISIS was literally outside the gates of Baghdad, Obama I'm sure was smart enough to realize the blunder (although never openly admit to it), and he knew ISIS had to be stopped.

If there was a betrayal, it was a betrayal right in his own house - in Washington. Who warned Obama that the war against Libya would turn out badly? Who warned Obama that arming and training rebels in Syria would lead to the rise of radical Islamic terrorism? The answer is nobody. Certainly not Hillary Clinton. Certainly not Joe Biden. Certainly not the generals. Not the Democrats (heaven forbid!). And certainly not leading Republicans like Graham and McCain. Who had the foresight and guts to make a case for leaving these countries alone? Nobody, that's who, except maybe Rand Paul and Dennis Kucinich. I think the voices for war fit into Obama's personal bias, and those voices in D.C. were overwhelming, much as they still are today.

Pretty boring point of view.

Other countries who meddled I'm sure each had their own agenda. But I think Obama blundered, and I think his mind was closed, and I don't think anyone had the balls to challenge him.

Side note:

Congratulations to our intelligence and military professionals for killing that scum of the earth. Job well done.

Seth

 

US support for Sunni jihadist groups, including many who were part of Al Queda and would later become ISIS, predated Obama. It was a policy started under Bush during the "Redirection" at the time of the so-called "surge" in Iraq.
https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2007/03/05/the-redirection

 

It is not so much that your narrative is boring - the problem is that it is a false "feel good" narrative. When I listen to Obama speak - it seem preposterous that he would knowingly arm terrorists groups - yet - the facts are the facts.

It wasn't arms and support once - or for a short period - some CIA covert operation gone bad that the Admin was not aware if. This was was over a 5 year period where our stated position was against the Syrian Army.

Why was this our stated policy to begin with was the first question ? Even if there was some moderate fighting force of some significance (a complete falsehood but let assume otherwise) If the overwhelming majority fighting Assad was Al Qaeda/ISIS - and other groups of the same ilk (As stated by the Defense Intelligence Agency shortly after the conflict started) - we are aiding these groups by fighting against the Syrian Army in any way.

This is something even mainstream commentators have mentioned this (as it did not involve stating that we were knowingly arming terrorists - and das ist verbotten). The most common thing brought up is "what if the rebels win" "how is having a Black Flag flying over Syria better than Assad ?"

Either way - the main point of the OP - is the MSM cover up. Rand Paul goes on CNN's Sunday morning program "State of the Union" in 2014 and states directly that we are arming and allied with Al Qaeda and ISIS in Syria.

The front page/story of every newspaper/network - should have been "Congressman accuses Obama Admin of arming the 911 Terrorists"

Is this not news ? -- apparently not because the response was complete silence "crickets"

This is disturbing on many levels. If we made a mistake in Syria -- So be it - Lets have a discussion of exactly what happened, why it happened, and stop it from happening again. 400,000 dead - horrible atrocity, war crimes, crimes against humanity. This will be part of Obama's legacy - once enough time has gone by such that discussion of this topic in the MSM is no longer "verboten"

 

Obama never understood the Middle East. He didn't see the storm coming until the proverbial stuff hit the fan.

At the time I was somewhat bewildered by our politicians' statements in favor of Assad (well, not quite in favor, just "better with Assad than the alternatives" ). Then this happened:

https://www.newsweek.com/how-syrias-assad-helped-forge-isis-255631

I found out about the release of jihadists from Syrian prisons as it happened. I wonder why Paul Rand didn't.

Never trust the words of a politician about his political opponents.

There are other sources as well.

https://www.spiegel.de/international/world/former-prisoners-fight-in-syrian-insurgency-a-927158.html

And our very leftist Ha'aretz:

https://www.haaretz.com/middle-east...sia-and-isis-how-assad-won-in-syria-1.6462751

So much for the alleged American responsibility in creating and arming jihadists.

 

I don't believe Obama thought that at all.

Hillary OPPOSED intervention in Syria because she thought Assad was a reformer.. Assad took that as approval and increase his slaughter.

The US didn't get involved until late 2014..

Libya was uncontrollable. There was a faint hope that the tribes would support a return to the Idris constitution.. but the odd were poor. Obama and NATO didn't get involved until Libyan refugees were pouring into Italy.

 

So says the American Conservative.

Volkeisher Beobachter for the alt. Right

Purest BS entire. ISIS was created from the ruins of Saddam's Revolutionary Guard after Bush screwed them by snatching defeat from victory in his attempt to turn the world's oldest country into West Texas on the Euphrates after the famous Mission Accomplished of 2004. The RG had basically stood down so we could take Baghdad with no opposition and we rewarded this service by treating them like we did Nazis after WWII when the Ba'ath, their political predecessors and the only remnants of Nasser's old UAR, were probably the only secular force with any real power left in the entire Middle East. Greater fools they, since Bush was an acolyte of the Sauds and the Sauds have been promoting and financing a quietist form of Islamic fundamentalism in madrassas all over the ME from the very beginning

 

Our relationship with ISIS is and was covert. Black Ops, as they say in the vernacular. Black Budgets.

 

Well we don't know anything about the nature of the relationship. It's all speculation.

 

You right about everything but the Saudis.. Those madrassas are small.. Most are under 20 student (boys only) from ages 6 to 12. The teach reading, writing, arithmetic and geography.

The SAG don't promote Wahhabism.. In fact quite the opposite for the past 40 years.

 

We didn't have any relationship with ISIS.. That's Trump type conspiracy crap.

 

People like Tulsi Gabbard, who fought over there and is in congress, have been talking about it for a number of years. The mainstream media is allergic to truths like that, so they rarely cover it.

Some who are paying attention are aware of the relationship--Israel and US take care of ISIS.

No, the average man on the street is not aware of it, but he is not aware of much at all except what the latest football scores are.

 

The Obama Administration had some pretty strange connections in that Syria thing. There is no question that ISIS fighters had some American weaponry but how they got it isn't all that clear. We had some strange alliances in the initial push to toss Assad through proxy fighters.

 

Buses and helicopters provided by the US and Israel ferried ISIS people around the country, according to various sources as it happened. Sources like Veterans Today.

 

Its a lie. Look at a map.

 

Veterans Today has nothing to do with veterans and is much worse than World Net Daily or Debka.. They never print anything but lies.

 

The FSA was pretty disorganized and NON sectarian in the beginning... but its never been aligned with ISIS.

Look at the distribution.



PS.. the depleted oil fields are in Eastern Syria.

 

We weren't involved in Syria at all until late 2014.

 

I notice what Tulsi said.. I thought she was smarter than that. She's just wrong. Maybe she read that tabloid trash Veterans Today.

 

Well, we can agree that it was disorganized. There's that.

 

Was that when Trump drew the famous red line and Russia told him to stick it?

 

That was Obama.. when Assad gassed all those civilians.

Syria timeline: Latest chemical attack is far from first
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2017/04/06/syria-conflict-timeline/100150344
Apr 06, 2017 · Syria timeline: Latest chemical attack is far from first.

President Donald Trump suggests that Syrian President Bashar Assad may have to leave power after this week's chemical weapons attack. Speaking to reporters aboard Air Force One, Trump said that what happened in Syria is a disgrace to humanity.