What if there is no abrahamic god?

So what? they obviously wouldn't have liked doing it or they wouldn't have asked for Jesus's guidance on the matter. As we know, he held up a coin with Caesar's head on it and said "Give to Caesar that which is Caesar's"..

 

I think you need to come down to earth and visit Palestine in the 1st century CE.There were around 20-30 known historians around the time of Jesus. NONE mention him.

You've just confirmed what I said. This is one important event in their lives. Can they remember the rest of their lives.

 

Matthew calls the coin 'tribute' money. Mark gets it right by calling it, in modern translation, a penny (Roman denarius). This was a simple Roman coin which had Caesars head on it. It wasn't 'tribute' money. Paying tribute is to 'salute' someone as is due to their status or actions. Paying Taxes certainly wasn't that. It was to maintain the despised Roman Empire, so they certainly didn't like it.
Compare Romans 13. which confirms the Preachers 'ruling'

Roman coins were 'minted' all over the Empire and were of different designs for provinces and cities that 'minted' them. They all had one feature the same - the head of the Emperor.
EXCEPT those minted by Tetrarch Antipas (Herod Antipas) who ruled the territory next to Pilate. He was allowed to exclude any images on his 'minted' coins so as not to offend the Jews. Pilate, on the other hand, couldn't careless and did much that annoyed the Jews. He introduced, overnight, shields into Jerusalem with Caesars image on. The Jews were in uproar, complained to Tiberius, who had Pilate remove them. Images, to the Jews, were blasphemous.

 

After executing Jesus, the snooty priests and Romans started trying to airbrush him out of history by hassling his followers, such as when the priests got their lackeys to stone Stephen to death (below), so no wonder people were wary of mentioning Jesus's name!-

 

You're grasping a t straws. There is no proof the Romans tried to 'airbrush him out of History'. Their two top 'official' Historians actually mention what they have heard of this Jesus movement second hand. And their histories were accepted the Romans. You can read them today. And this was many decades after Jesus. Why should the Romans be bothered unless the Christian sect made trouble - and they often did. In fact Agrippa II himself helped Josephus with his histories.

Until Nero the Christians were accepted by the Romans as a Jewish Sect.

Contemporary with Jesus historians make no mention of him. And Josephus and Tacitus mention the Chrestus movement secondhand.

 

Speaking of proof, there's no proof in your conspiracy theory that the gospel-writers were liars!
Same with the 'Apollo was faked' consp-theorists, they claim the astronauts were liars too!
Shrinks have a term for it-
Wiki- "Paranoid personality disorder is a psychiatric diagnosis characterised by a pervasive and long-standing suspiciousness and generalized mistrust of others"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paranoid_personality_disorder

PS- maybe their suspicion was triggered by events in their past which made them lose their faith in human nature, such as for example a messy divorce or other trauma..

 

Yet plenty of other executed messiahs got mentioned by historians at the time.

- - - Updated - - -

Why are the only options "the Gospels are true" or "the Gospel writers were liars"?

Why couldn't the writers have simply been wrong?

Were the writers of every other holy book of other religions deliberate liars?

 

1- Who were these other "messiahs" who got executed?
2- It was Trevor who said the gospel-writers were liars so you'd better ask him..

 

1. I'll give you a list later. Zealot by Reza Azlan mentions dozens, Simon of Peraea and Athronges being the two best known.

2. I would if you hadn't made that false dichotomy numerous times in the past. Why couldn't the Gospel writers have simply been wrong?

Here's a good source for other 1st century messiah claimants who the Roman's executed, yet had no problem mentioning:

http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/12416-pseudo-messiahs

 

Let's just be kind and say they made errors.

Luke 2. verses 1 and 2 are the subject of speculation amongst scholars. Luke just uses a 'decree by Caesar Augustus'. Provincial Governors did these. Luke quotes Quirinius as Governor of Syria. However, the birth of Jesus must have been around 7 - 6 BCE, and Quirinius was recorded as being 'on campaign' till 3 BC in Asia Minor.
Verses 3 and 4 make no sense whatever. Roman rules meant that tax was on property. If Joseph was a carpenter in Nazareth this was where his property was. He had no reason to go to Bethlehem.
To suggest he had property in Bethlehem makes no sense whatever. It was over 90 miles from Nazareth. 3-4 days journey. Also, if he had a property in Bethlehem he would not have needed to seek shelter.
Again, 'because he was of the house and lineage of David' is ridiculous. David lived 1000 years before Jesus. In that time Bethlehem may have been emptied by the Babylonians and who knows who went back after their release, or what and who they found occupying their properties - if they hadn't been destroyed. Many of the captives never returned to Palestine. They either spread throughout the Middle East or stayed in Babylon.
David had MANY sons. If the descendants of David had to return to Bethlehem for this taxing does that mean they all had property in this small town.Hundreds of thousands of people would have flooded the whole area.
The whole story is a fantasy to get Jesus to Bethlehem where Matthew says he was.

Matthew mentions nothing about a Journey. He has Jesus already living in Bethlehem. But which Bethlehem? He uses Bethlehem Ephratah which he claims is prophesied in the OT. In fact the Jews claim this to be the birthplace of one of their own 'heros'. Bethlehem in Zebulon - close to Nazareth - is more likely. All Matthews quotes from the OT to establish Jesus as the prophesied one are simply taken out of the contexts in which they were writtten.

THAT'S WHY YOU STUDY THE OT. Not just accept what the NT says.

And the 2 genealogies are both wrong for a Messiah. Now I must do some work.

 

1- But the executed "messiahs" weren't real messiahs at all, only Jesus fitted that bill..
2- The gospel-writers might have been mistaken on very minor points, but their message stayed the same.
For example I could sing one of Elvis's songs and get the odd word wrong, but no big deal, right Elv?
"Uh-huh"

 

Where is your evidence outside of the Bible that Jesus "fit the bill"?

Why weren't the Gospel writers as wrong as say the writers of the Quran?

 

You're too suspicious and strait-laced in your thinking mate, probably stemming from your years as a church organist being told what to think by organised religion. Me, I've never belonged to any church and am therefore free to think for myself..
For example what had Quirinus miles away in Syria got to do with Israel? It was Caesar Augustus who gave orders for a census, not him.
And although Josph and Mary lived in Nazareth, they obviously had roots in Bethlehem which is why they had to travel there to register for the census, otherwise they'd have stayed home with their feet up..

 

Caesar Augustus gave no such orders for a census and the Bible totally gets wrong how Roman censuses worked. Romans did NOT require people to travel to the place of their father's birth in order to be counted.

Luke fabricated that in order to make Jesus fit a prophecy. If they were willing to make up obviously false census rules to make Jesus fit prophecy, doesn't it make you wonder what else they made up?

 

Not at all. I'm using study of the times and Roman Laws of which you appear to know little.

Caesar Augustus gave the orders. Provincial Governors carried them out. Syria and Israel border each other. But for matters of tax Quirinius would have authority beyond this border. It is known that when Ethnarch Archelaus was deposed Quirinius was sent in to take an 'audit' of his kingdom.

For goodness sake. Bethlehem was a small town. Did tens/hundreds of thousands of people who were descendants of David (1000 years before), supposedly sent there by the census, all have property there? That would make Bethlehem vastly bigger than even Jerusalem of the time.

The problem is that thinking for yourself neglects the facts and history that make up the Gospels. Like others you quote from the Bible often without knowing exactly what the context is saying. You have little idea of life of the times.

I put aside what I had been told long ago and thought for myself.

 

his name was not even Jesus, people renamed him that later so he sounded less middle eastern

 

You do realise that In Jesus time most of Herod the Greats kingdom, upon his death, was given to his 3 sons. Tetrarch Antipas, Galilee. Ethnarch Archelaus, Judea. Tetrarch Philipp, Trachonitis. These three were given authority to rule as they wished, but within certain parameters. Archelaus was a tyrant worse than his father and deposed by Rome. Judea then came under direct rule from Rome and Pontius Pilate was eventually put in charge in 26 CE. till about 36CE
There was also Syria a Roman Province, and the area of the Decapolis which were autonomous cities mainly occupied by Greeks. A few cities were given to Salome.
Jesus was from Galilee (Nazareth) Antipas' territory. But he was arrested in Jerusalem (Judea) Pilates jurisdiction. For this reason, under tradition, Pilate offered Herod the chance to judge Jesus, but he refused.

 

There you go again mate, calling a gospel-writer a liar!
Logic it out- If it was such a blatant boldfaced lie as you allege, why did nobody ever come forward to discredit Luke by saying "He's lying through his teeth"?
Obviously the gospel-writers were the men on the spot and had their fingers on the pulse of the times not like the "armchair theologians" of today 2000 years later..
Same when I leave comments for youtube vids of Sixties music, some people try to argue with me, so I put them in their place by telling them "Unlike you who wasn't alive then, I was a teenager in the 60's, I was there!"

 

They did! How many times are you going to use this bull(*)(*)(*)(*) argument?

The claims the Bible makes about Roman censuses are blatant lies. Augustus didn't call a census at the time the Bible claims he did and Roman censuses never required that people go to the place of their father's birth.

 

I am an atheist even I know diverse Gods I just reminds.....

 

Times and dates are tricky to pin down, for example there were at least three censuses in the area of Judea - one in 8 BC., one starting around 2 B.C. and one in 6 AD.
Scholars can't even agree when Jesus was born, some say between 4 and 7 BC!
As regards going to Bethlehem for the census, Joseph was born there, not "hundreds of thousands" of other people as you suggest..

 

Some years ago it was claimed that 'Hitler's Diaries" had been found, but after scrutinising them, experts easily denounced them as fakes, and a guy came forward to admit he'd written them himself.
But nobody ever came forward to denounce the gospel-writers, because they knew they weren't fakes..

 

Lots of people did! Are you going to deny the existence of non-Christians post Jesus?
Millions of people denied the story of Jesus.

And yes, Luke deliberately lied because he needed Jesus's birth to match a prophecy. The specific claims about Roman censuses made are blatant lies.

 

So you are calling Roman Laws lies?

Logic it out? Well. Let's consider the fact that there were no Gospels around for decades after Jesus died. When they did become available they were probably not household items for a century.. There were no printing presses. All was done by hand. Pauls letters were passed round from church to church. Using logic I suggest it would be a bit late for anyone to remember.

You're still living in today's world.

 

Haha you conspiracy-theorists are funny guys, this is the Bible according to you..-
Genesis- LIES!
Exodus- LIES!
Leviticus- LIES!
Numbers- LIES!
Deuteronomy-LIES!
Joshua- LIES!
Judges-LIES!
Ruth-LIES!
1 Samuel-LIES!
2 Samuel- LIES!
1 Kings- LIES!
2 Kings- LIES!
1 Chronicles-LIES!
2 Chronicles-LIES!
Ezra- LIES!
Nehemiah-LIES!
Esther-LIES!
Job-LIES!
Psalms-LIES!
Proverbs-LIES!
Ecclesiastes-LIES!
Song of Solomon-LIES!
Isaiah-LIES!
Jeremiah-LIES!
Lamentations-LIES!
Ezekiel- LIES!
Daniel- LIES!
Hosea- LIES!
Joel-LIES!
Amos-LIES!
Obadiah-LIES!
Jonah-LIES!
Micah-LIES!
Nahum-LIES!
Habakkuk-LIES!
Zephaniah-LIES!
Haggai-LIES!
Zecharia-LIES!
Malachi-LIES!
Matthew-LIES!
Mark-LIES!
Luke-LIES!
John- LIES!
The Acts-LIES!
Romans-LIES!
1 Corinthians-LIES!
2 Corinthians- LIES!
Galatians-LIES!
Ephesians- LIES!
Phillipians-LIES!
Colossians-LIES!
1 Thessalonians-LIES!
2 Thessalonians-LIES!
1 Timothy-LIES!
2 Timothy-LIES!
Titus-LIES!
Philemon- LIES!
Hebrews- LIES!
James-LIES!
1 Peter-LIES!
2 Peter- LIES!
1 John- LIES!
2 John-LIES!
3 John-LIES!
Jude-LIES!
Revelation-LIES!