Where Did the Trinity Teaching Come From?

Your own style is to define what I am and what I do in order to pigeon-hole me and demean me. Paranoid? LOL!! It's not a good idea to make this debate/discussion personal.

Do you see the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit as being 3-in-1 or do you see them as three separate entities? Also, what, exactly, is "the Son"?

 

Who is this for?

 

It is for the "not so" giftedone who posted a lot of his dribble under my name in a previous post. I'm sure it was just an "ungifted mistake".

 

Ah, okay, this thread has me a little confused.

 

Are you referring to basketball, or do you picture him drooling?

 

Could have been the server mistake.. I have had this happen to me numerous times in the posts of others.

 

Kode:

In my last response, I asked you a question from the scripture at Matthew 28:18 (which is the context to Matthew 28:19 that you you claim proves Trinity), as follows:

"Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me." (Matthew 28:18 -- New International Version or NIV)

QUESTION TO KODE: If Jesus and Jehovah and Jehovah's holy spirit are combined into a single god, why would Jesus need to have authority aka permission given to him from Jehovah?"​

I find it interesting that you have completely avoided answering my question and instead, you have now resorted to telling me that I am being "personal" and that I "demean" you. As I recall, you showed up complaining in the previous post that you had me "running scared" and that I was doing "knee-jerk attack" against you.

Your modus operandi, whenever I debunk your scriptural claims by directing you to context (surrounding words, verses, or chapters), is to avoid what I showed you in the context by you putting on the outraged act--complaining that you are being attacked by me.

Until you answer my above question, I have nothing further to say to you.

Alter2Ego

 

A person is a complex of intellect, emotion and volition.
The persons of the trinity each have their own individual intellects, emotions and volitions; that's what make them individual persons. However, their individual intellects, emotions and volitions are infinitely identical; that's what makes them one.

 

First question that you need to answer before attempting to go on is this:

Which version of The Holy Bible do you trust in? Each 'version' offers differences of certain things. So which 'version' do you trust?

The KJV says, "For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one." 1 John 5:7
The NIV says, "For there are three that testify: 8 the (a) Spirit, the water and the blood; and the three are in agreement." 1 John 5:7-8

The NIV sources/references say that the KJV verse did not appear in Original Manuscripts. So which do you believe in?

Okay.. so let's say you put your trust in the NIV. Allow me to share a difference.

Allow me to give one example..

Luke 6:16 "Judas son of James, and Judas Iscariot, who became a traitor." - NIV
Luke 6:16 "And Judas the brother of James, and Judas Iscariot, which also was the traitor." - KJV

Now.... Is Judas the son of James or is he the brother of James?''


If you trust the NIV, then Judas would be the son of James.
If you trust the KJV, then Judas would be the brother of James.


And do you see what the difference between being a 'son' and 'brother' would be to any person?

And so as the world seeks to 'liberate' humanity by having them be misled, they are not fighting any other than God, The Father and The Son.

So regardless. If they do not believe upon God, The Father and The Son, they will inevitably end up where The Holy Bible says they will. Let them go.. Why burden their lives any more by trying to convince them of something they have gone to great lengths trying to disprove or mislead... What are they thinking to do? Bring the 'war instruments' down from Heaven so they can go even further to show their belief that God does not care for life? No.. That sort of Armageddon ideas are only in Hollywood. But either way, they will 'end' up where they are to 'end' up without the continuation of their Hollywood idea of what God is going to do and their provokings to have God burn down HIS sulfur and Brimstone.. The ONLY thing their provokings are causing are for humanity to lose time, lose sleep and for having the wrong doers increase in strength and heart to continue their 'war' against God and Heaven until fulfillment. So why not end this world's false idea of Armageddon by having them be in a place where they cannot continue on in their Hollywood plot to have God get so angry that HE is going to shower down fire and brimstone! Let's get HIM really really MAD!!!! Although HE will more likely than NOT pour down fire and brimstone, HE surely can place them in the place where they will not be a continual dripping of a leaky faucet. Either that or just have them patched up so that the continual drippings/provocations can stop. What's so wrong with that? Life can resume without all of those dripping leaks.

It's their Armageddon idea anyway.. which is not even True. Having their Armageddon idea taken out of the way or having them placed elsewhere can and might help life resume. If they want to continue on with their 'fight' against God in that place, at least it isn't going to effect humans and life on Earth.

What is so unLoving about that? It's alot more accommodating and Loving than not.. Are they are seeking to bring every other human and life into their war against God? Are they trying to have people buy into their idea of Armageddon? Are they trying to recruit enemies towards God?


Why do they seek to have lives destroyed regardless of Faith? Why are they obstacles in the way to get into The Door of Christ and The Holy Bible? Why are they tampering with God's Written Word? And then fighting and arguing over the obvious?


Luke 6:16 "Judas son of James, and Judas Iscariot, who became a traitor." - NIV
Luke 6:16 "And Judas the brother of James, and Judas Iscariot, which also was the traitor." - KJV


Son or Brother? Trinity or not? Necessary or Optional? How long will these arguings continue?

Women speakers in Church or not?
Male Church Prostitutes or not?
Offering of uncleannes to God or not?
Altar with uncleanliness or not?

It might not matter to the women who speak in Church, it might not matter to the male Church prostitutes, it might not matter to those who bring unclean offerings, it might not matter to those who stand on the altar in their uncleanliness, BUT it might matter to many others besides themselves.


Why are these seeking to bring 'Truth' into the lives of everyone although The Holy Bible clearly says the contrary? Why don't they just 'step' down from their position if they don't want to cause any trouble? Even persons of the Secular World have enough integrity to step down when needed, right?

I kind of take it like this:

Why does all of humanity need to revolve around those who do not want to step down although they are clearly wrong? Not in opinion, not in idea, but wrong in What IS ALREADY WRITTEN.


I'm sure that there are families which harbor murderers within them. And to these, they are not doing anything too wrong. In fact, they might be trying to help them recover. But on the flip side, the families of the victims might not agree. In this scenario, what might be a 'good' way for them to live near one another?

On the one side there is love being shown.. On the other side the fear to openly love.

Add to this all the independent, individual, grouped, sectarianed within that neighborhood and you have what it is like today, everyday, almost everywhere on the planet.

 

But it started with one family showing love and the other family fearing to openly love.

2 families, 2 different homes, 1 neighborhood... and then all the others... The 1 family who has grown to be afraid to openly love now has all the others they need to deal with also. And so what might happen to them? They might become as every other person they see. Part individual, part independent, part grouped, part sectarian and they lose all the True things they had in their lives. And they become 'washed and jaded'.

Blasé.


Isn't that how life is becoming?

Have you become afraid to speak out against wrong? Or against your own right? Have you become afraid to love your own family?

How is this anything 'good'?


Is this not happening, even, in The Churches? You might be barred from The Church if you speak of 'sin' there. But Church is supposed to be at least 'part' Holy, right? But how did all those persons get into at least, part 'Holy' and still getting away with all that junk?

There's one who brings a different Church partner every week and the Pastor seems to just adore each weekly brief conversation... How is that possible?

That one is getting stronger and stronger in the congregation and those which are brought are also getting stronger and stronger in brazenness. But to which 'Church' would I go if I left?

There's more contention within pertaining to foods and drinks and the matters of immorality are being swept under the rugs with poor janitorial services to clean up.

I miss the 9 o clock service, make it to the 10:30 and I'm beginning to be called a traducer. I go back to the 9 o clock services and the 10:30 people look at me side eyed in the parking lot if they see me...


Noone, not including myself, has said anything about that one person and the many different weekly guests...


etc. etc...


Does it matter? Does being a Son or Brother, matter?

Luke 6:16 "Judas son of James, and Judas Iscariot, who became a traitor." - NIV
Luke 6:16 "And Judas the brother of James, and Judas Iscariot, which also was the traitor." - KJV


In both instances, the words are already Written.


Does it matter? Does being a Son or Brother, matter?

Would it matter in your own personal life?

 

Obviously you approach scripture with the idea you are to disprove it. Another approach would be, what is God teaching me here. Is it the letter of the Word, or the spirit that is conveyed here. I use several translations in discussing that conveyance with those that search the scriptures for meaning.. Understanding that as humans we are limited in our languages. Our languages are like witnesses to a traffic accident. Different witnesses with different perspectives, yet all witnesses to the same event. Why do you blow out of proportion that Judas, the son of James, or the brother of James, whichever, when the whole point of the scripture is that this Judas is different than Judas Iscariot the traitor? As scripture so appropriately points out....:you strain at a knat and swallow a camel. When you approach scripture with the idea you are to disprove it....you set yourself up with the belief you already know better than God. That is the dilemma of mankind. You would better understand that dilemma if you would take it on faith and try to discern. That is of course unless you believe that mankind is now "enlightened" and need no assistance......of course that is often why the division in thought..

 

What is God teaching me here... Is it the letter of the Word or the spirit that is conveyed? Is a walk with God a walk, a crawl, a drive, a horse ride? Do I walk the same as crawl the same way as drive the same way as I ride a horse?

I use several translations in discussing.... for meaning... Similar to using several user manuals for a particular appliance.

You strain at a knat and swallow a camel.. I strain at a gnat and swallow a camel..

When I approach scripture with the idea you are to disprove it.... How many other Scriptures, their own Sacred Texts are being translated into 100s?

That is the dilemma of mankind.. To make manuals after manuals to one appliance.

 

All manuals come in different languages. You can pick at all of them. The idea is to get the meaning across. For that, you have to look deeper than the mere word. The Bible even encourages us to "rightfully divide the Word of God. This is more a function of the heart rather than the brain. The "heart" is the part of the soul that deals with "intent". If your intent is to prove you know more than the One who created you.....forget it.

 

delade:

If you are relying on 1 John 5:7 as proof that Christendom's Trinity is a Bible teaching, try again. 1 John 5:7 is a fabrication, a made-up verse that appeared in the Bible several centuries after the last book of the Bible had been completed under Divine inspiration by Jehovah.

And guess what? The publishers of New International Version (NIV) are not the only ones making that admission. Numerous other Bible publishers have been forced to admit it,

Alter2Ego

 

Answer: he didn't need "permission". (please provide the verse you believe says he asked for permission)

Before going on, I'd just like to clarify my previous statements.
Verse 19 says "Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost"

The point I'd like to notice here is that the bible does refer to the three and we see such a reference in verse 19. That was a big part intended in my previous comments.

Further, the following verses:
Matthew 3:16, 12:28, Romans 8:9, 8:14, 15:19, 1 Corin 2:11, 2:14, 3:16, 12:3, and John 4:2 all refer to "the Spirit of God".

Among those verses, some that make a pretty good case for the "Spriit of God" being God are:
Romans 8:9 New International Version (NIV) - You, however, are not in the realm of the flesh but are in the realm of the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, they do not belong to Christ.

1 Corinthians 2:11 New International Version (NIV) - For who knows a person’s thoughts except their own spirit within them? In the same way no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God.

1 Corinthians 12:3 indicates that "the holy Spirit of God" and "the Holy Ghost" are one and the same. After all, I believe you would say that you and your spirit are one being and not two. Can you deny God and "the Spirit of God" the same oneness?

So this supports my statement that the Holy Spirit and God are one and not two.

Next:
We read "the Lord God" in the following verses: Luke 1:32, 1,68, and1st Peter 3:15. And we see Jesus being referred to as the Lord in Matt 17:4, Luke 23:42, 24:3, And John 11:21, and about 150 other verses.

Further, familiarity with the culture and philosophy of the times sheds light on the question. And that can be found in Philo's writings where he discusses the "Logos", the "Son of God", and the "idea of the ideal". Philo didn't know of Jesus in all probability because he was a contemporary, and he never mentioned Jesus.

Now, I don't say what I did out of knowledge. I didn't get it out of the bible when I said the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are different views of the one Spirit. I got it from within, and not from mind. I got it in spite of mind. But I can express it in terms of logic to your mind....

Consider this: most spiritually-inclined people are aware that "the kingdom of God" has certain characteristics.... eternality, timelessness (time doesn't pass), no dimensions or distance or locations, etc.

So before I go on and risk wasting my time and yours, tell me, do you hold to the notion that in the domain "beyond" this world (heaven, kingdom of God, afterlife, or whatever you might prefer to call it) there is no distance, -no "here" vs. "there", -no location? Answer that I I will be able to continue my comments with confidence that we are communicating. Thanks.

 

The God of the bible is one. There is only one true God according to the bible. However, whenever the God of the bible acts, the bible always attributes the intent to God the Father, the affect to God the Holy Spirit, and the effect to the God the Son. The only times the bible ever makes a distinction between the persons of the trinity is when the God of the bible acts, and it is always in the economy outlined above.
The Father, the Holy Spirit and the Son each have their own individual intellects, emotions and volitions; that's what makes them individual persons. However, their individuals intellects, emotions and volitions are infinitely identical; that's what makes them one.

 

Couldn't this be interpreted more broadly?

"Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me." (Matthew 28:18 -- New International Version or NIV)

 

It is effectively His.

 

One can say that Jesus is effectively God. The holy Spirit is affectively God and The Father is, for all intents and purposes, God.

 

Kobe:

I bolded in blue the relevant words at Matthew 28:18 where Jesus clearly states "authority . . . has been given to me."

Are you telling me that you don't accept the fact that the expression "authority given" is the same as "permission given"?

Alter2Ego

 

When you "receive" the Presence of the indwelling God and "abide in Him", you know that you are all that He is and has, because you ARE That. There is one Life, one Being, one "IS". And it is God. At that point you Know that you are not distinct nor apart from Him. You are One. That is what Jesus was saying had happened to him.

Most people cannot understand nor accept what I just said, and they contest it with all manner of questions and challenges like the one you addressed to me in your final sentence. People are the same today as they were 2000 years ago. So for their ears of flesh, Jesus worded it as he did. That is why he said he speaks in parables. That is why it is said "it is not given that they should understand".

The unspiritual view of this is that there were two beings: Jesus and his Father in heaven (God). That is not how Jesus saw it because he had a spiritual view.

Your idea of duality is due to your belief that you are your body. But that is not What you are. Your true being exists prior to the arising of any concepts. Apprehending this is being dead to the “I am the body” while alive. This is what Jesus had done and anyone with genuine spiritual insight understands what I just said and they feel the inner rejoicing of the Spirit upon reading it.

 

What an interesting character who is written to believe that, because all that character is comes from his author, that the author is no more than his character. Truly you write that all you are comes from God, but you are in error to think that's all God is.

 

I never said that is all God is.

 

Romans and Colossians were written by Paul, who never met jesus
And, for that matter, non of the gospel writers ever met jesus either

If jesus cared to explicitly address the subject, he certainly was capable of dong so
The simple fact is that there were numerous disagreements in the early church... including disagreements about the trinity....and these disagreements would not exist if jesus had expressed himself on the issue

 

You equated yourself with God. Then you equated God with you. It's all in writing above.