Why do Christians and Jews become non-believers in their God?

Discussion in 'Religion & Philosophy' started by Cougarbear, Dec 28, 2020.

  1. Cougarbear

    Cougarbear Well-Known Member

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    I see many in this forum as well in other forums say they used to believe in God. But, they stopped when they realized that if God is merciful and loving, why would God allow wars, child molestations, death, destruction and all those ugly things about our human condition. It is true that when we look at how many times God intervened in mankind over a period of 6,000 years, it's not all that much. One big event with the flood. A few cities destroyed. Jesus raised the dead of a few and healed many of the sick and lame. But, that's pretty much it. Why?

    Here's my take on it:

    1. To understand more about our human condition, we need to know what God's Plan is. I believe it's to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of mankind. There are two possible ways to accomplish this.
    A. Have complete control over humans for every second of every day for 6,000 years. Not allowing for any free thought, worship, personal liberty and freedom and choices. We'd be herded like cattle to earth shown what good and evil are but not having to take part in both and make our own free moral choices.
    B. Have 99.9% freedom to choose good and evil, learn from our own mistakes, live in liberty and tyranny, judged on how we did with certain assistance and tools to know learn about good and evil and make the choice. Those tools include prayer, prophecy, scriptures, the Light of Christ and the Holy Ghost...

    2. God chose B. I also believe as spirit children, we were also there to choose A or B as well. Jehovah chose to follow Father in Heaven with Plan B. Lucifer chose Plan A. 2/3rds of the hosts of heaven (includes all of us) chose to follow Jehovah (who would later come to the earth as Jesus Christ and atone for our sins if we repent). The other third of the hosts of heaven followed Lucifer and were banished from Heaven to come to the earth and tempt the rest of us to reject Father in Heaven's Plan B.

    With this in mind, if God answered every prayer and wish by every person on the earth, he would be following Plan A. Marxism is a form of Plan A with tyranny and suppression of liberties and personal freedoms. The way Marxists often take over free countries is by creating anarchy, hatred, and lawlessness. After society completely breaks down, the Marxist swoops in and restores order through tyranny. Saul Alinsky wrote a book called "Rules for Radicals" in which Hillary Clinton, Biden, Obama and many other liberals are students of. A new movie out from liberal Hollywood depicts what happens when one person gets the power to grant everyone's wishes in the world. Lawlessness is the outcome. I couldn't believe my eyes when I watched the new WW84 movie on Christmas Day this depiction. Since the world is made up of conservatives, liberals, Marxists, Federalists, Atheists, Believers, Fascists, Bigots and others, imagine if everyone got their wishes. Total lawlessness. Communist nations and Free nations would point their nukes at each other and launch them.

    God's infinite wisdom understands this. So, he intervenes occasionally personally and few times to nations in order to make sure His Plan B is moving forward. So, we live in a wonderful world of opportunity. It is up to us to be a part of the good and help others in need and don't have our opportunities. But, to think their is not God because he won't stop wickedness at this point in time is just plain ignorant and pointless. If Satan succeeds then God will intervene and we will enter into the period known as the Millennium. Satan will be bound with his devils and there will be a lot more peace for a thousand years. We will still have our agency.
     
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  2. MJ Davies

    MJ Davies Well-Known Member

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    I grew up Christian. Always believed. Volunteered in my community, lived by the "Golden Rule", attended services every week and had to get my life completely destroyed to realize it was all a lie. Of every mistake in my past, my biggest regret is believing a total lie for so many decades. I don't feed that nonsense to my kids and never will.
     
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  3. Cougarbear

    Cougarbear Well-Known Member

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    How was your life destroyed? Seems like helping others out in your community and living a golden rule life is a good thing. That it brought forth good fruit as you helped others. Lies don't do that. So, that good life you were living was destroyed how?
     
  4. MJ Davies

    MJ Davies Well-Known Member

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    I won't discuss it in a public forum. And, the only argument "good Christians" can come up with is my faith "wasn't strong enough" (untrue) and/or "God works in mysterious ways" (or doesn't give a d*mn). And, now, cue the "those weren't *real* Christians" party line.
     
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  5. Cougarbear

    Cougarbear Well-Known Member

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    I can only assume it had to do with a death or possibly a divorce or something. My son fell away because he prayed to be more liked by his peers. But, again, not sure why that would cause one to deny God if you realize what I wrote is true. God always answers prayers. But, it isn't always going to be "Yes" to what you think it should be. That's prideful and puts you above God. It's God's plan, not yours. You did what Lucifer did when he decided not to follow Father's plan of salvation. Plan A, by the way, is the Plan Lucifer put before God and the rest of us. Not for Father's glory but for his own. Sounds like you are doing the same thing. Fortunately, Father gave us a tool for us to use when we lose our way. Jesus Christ and his atonement.
     
  6. Capt Nice

    Capt Nice Well-Known Member

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    My parents gave me a good introduction to Christianity when I was a child. They wanted me to have the introduction (so to speak) so I could make my mind up when I became an adult. The result is I'm an Atheist who thinks you don't have to be a Christian to live a good life that's compatible with the 10 Commandments. In fact most of the Christians I've known have proven to be a disappointment.
     
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  7. MJ Davies

    MJ Davies Well-Known Member

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    God isn't real. Religion is only designed to keep people in line. We are made to feel inadequate if things don't go as we had hoped; as if we are somehow defective or not deserving of God's so-called grace. It keeps people from seeking an "eye for an eye" making them believe there is some kind of Universal "justice" that happens after we pass away. In reality, nobody knows what happens after physical death so it's all a made up story to keep people fighting with one another on Earth and holding out for an unseen, unproven "promised land". It's all nonsense.
     
  8. Badaboom

    Badaboom Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    The only thing Marx was right about is: Religion is the opium of the masses.

    Religion is a tool used by the regent to keep the plebes in check. Don't mind your obvious poor living conditions, you'll be rewarded with a wonderful afterlife. The worst you are now, the better you'll be after death. Don't be envious of your better, accept your lot since god ordained it so. A bunch of ****ing nonsense...
     
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  9. Ronald Hillman

    Ronald Hillman Banned

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    Lets start off with the fact that there was no world wide flood, that there is no evidence that anyone has ever been raised from the dead, people become educated and start to question these absurdities, then they look at other silly stories in the bible and how it contradicts itself. Many never actually say there is definitely no god just that the one in the bible, Torah and other religious books is clearly rubbish.
     
  10. HonestJoe

    HonestJoe Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    There are a lot of assumptions that belief is built on, not least that any god exists and, if one does, that you have any kind of insight in to any plan it might have.

    But even if that is the plan, why wouldn't God just make it the case. Create humans as immortal in heaven from the outset, with all of the knowledge and understanding life would bring us inbuilt? Why would the kind of all powerful god you appear to be referring need any specific method or process to achieve whatever ends they desired?

    In general terms, this strikes me as a classic example of anthropomorphising God, attributing human-like needs, desires, wishes and limitations on a being that wouldn't have any of at all. I put to you the line many believers use very selectively, only when faced with questions about their faith they can't (or don't want to) answer; You can't being to understand the mind of God.
     
  11. Cougarbear

    Cougarbear Well-Known Member

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    That's exactly what Satan says, God isn't real. And you are buying what he's selling hook, line and sinker. Since you can't see it, who are you to say it's all nonsense? You are the one that lost your way, not me. And, I'm not talking about "religion." I'm talking about God. And, who made you feel inadequate? Inadequate about what? And who said you aren't deserving of God's grace? The only way that can be is if you deny the Holy Ghost. Denying the Father or Son isn't eternal damnation. Only the Holy Ghost when he shows you and you have no doubt God is real and you still deny. And, why is it that you feel the need for an eye for an eye? What the heck happened to you to harden your heart so? The only nonsense is your lack of understanding.
     
  12. JakeJ

    JakeJ Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Your argument is that God "completely destroy" your life - but you won't talk about it?

    So now you don't live by the Golden rule and don't volunteer - for which you see yourself as now a wiser person for not doing so?

    Are you certain that God destroyed your life? Maybe you confused God with Santa Claus? A lot of people do. In the Bible, the disciples did not become rich, powerful people of perfect health and loved by all. Most suffered constant poverty and many suffered more horrific deaths than anyone can imagine.

    I am not religious. My wife very much is. We don't talk about religion much. However she has said that in her entire life she has never asked God for anything - ever. Having her life is enough to be thankful for. To her, it is about eternity.
     
    Last edited: Dec 28, 2020
  13. Cougarbear

    Cougarbear Well-Known Member

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    Who said you have to be Christian to follow the 10 Commandments? Jews follow the 10 Commandments. Why pick on Christians? So, I have some questions for you:
    1. What god to you have in place of the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob?
    2. Do you have objects that you revere more than God. God's of gold?
    3. So you take the name of the Lord in vain?
    4. Do you keep the sabbath day holy and remember it weekly?
    5. Do you honor your mother and father who gave you Christian instructions?
    6. Kill anyone even in war?
    7. Ever commit adultery or any manner of fornication?
    8. Have you never taken something that isn't yours including stealing other people's faith?
    9. You've never lied including little white lies? You've always told the truth?
    10. You've never been jealous of what other people have accomplished in their lives including desiring and coveting another man's wife?

    I bet you are maybe at most 1 or 2 out of 10 okay and in no need of repentance. Don't worry, so are most Christians, Jews and atheists. It's the reason we need the atonement of Christ in our lives. To repent and move on.
     
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  14. MJ Davies

    MJ Davies Well-Known Member

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    I've already stated that I won't discuss it in a public forum. I also NEVER said that I no longer live by the "Golden rule" or stopped volunteering in my community.

    Make your argument if you must. Just don't do it by making claims that I never made.
     
  15. MJ Davies

    MJ Davies Well-Known Member

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    I understand your point of view very well. So, we can now agree to disagree.
     
  16. JakeJ

    JakeJ Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    You said being a Christian was why you followed the Golden rule and did volunteerism - but decides all that is "a lie." You posted:

    So you are not going to discuss your claim nor debate the topic at all. Well, you don't have to. I guess you just posted to declare you despise Christianity. Does that make you happy to feel that way?

    Too many people replace God with Santa Claus and then are upset when their Dear Santa list isn't met. By my understanding if that was your view you never were a Christian to being with. You believed in Santa Claus who rewards good little boys and then finally grew up realizing there is no Santa Claus.
     
    Last edited: Dec 28, 2020
  17. Cougarbear

    Cougarbear Well-Known Member

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    The ironic thing is you are disagreeing with yourself...
     
  18. MJ Davies

    MJ Davies Well-Known Member

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    There is nothing to debate. You believe in fairy tales and you are taking it upon yourself to stand in judgment in my disbelief in your fantasy world. It's not surprising. That's how all of "you people" are.
     
  19. Cougarbear

    Cougarbear Well-Known Member

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    Take a look at all your posts. You are standing in judgment of anyone who believes in God. That's how "all of you people are." Atheists stand in judgment by far more than believers in God. Look at all your posts. You aren't just disagreeing. You are standing on your tower of your own Babel looking down on people who are different.
     
  20. Curious Always

    Curious Always Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I'm a recovering Catholic.

    I stopped the moment I realized it was all a load of codswallop, for me.

    That means, it provides me no value; there is nothing I get from genuflecting, repeating prayers, making up stuff to confess, etc. I'm not into organized ritual.

    For others, religion means the world, and I support their journey and their faith. I have friends and family who believe with their whole beings. I don't challenge them. There's no need. They get value. Who am I to judge their choices?

    From my POV, if god wanted to be understood, he would not need me to give my hard earned cash to a wealthy church so they can explain it to me. His word would be self explanatory.

    A god who supports slavery and murder isn't one I can support.
     
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  21. Swensson

    Swensson Devil's advocate

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    It seems to me that if we're truly talking about why people become non-believers, then skipping to understanding God's plan means missing the meat of the issue. The problem of evil is often the thing that triggers people to look closer at their epistemology, but once they do, they find the religion to lack a leg to stand on in the first place. Once that has happened, dealing with the problem of evil isn't the sticking point any more, and you would have to justify why you're starting with God's plan at all, when plenty of alternate explanations (with or without gods) exist.
     
  22. Curious Always

    Curious Always Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Read my post below yours. I judge nobody.
     
  23. JakeJ

    JakeJ Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I have probably posted at least a hundred times on this forum that I am not a religious person - including on THIS thread a few messages up on this page.

    I'm just quoting you and asking why your think that your life sucked proves there is no God because you thought you should be rewarded for acting good? But you neither care to make your case nor debate the topic. Instead, you build your own cross and climbed up on it - ranting at me for some strange debate you have within yourself - listening only to yourself.

    I have noticed how much more it seems atheists are filled with hatred of Christians and Christianity, than Christians who spew out hatred of atheists and atheism.

    Without saying what was so awful about your life, did being a Christian cause destruction of your life? What did Christianity do you to you to fill you with so much rage about Christianity?
     
  24. Curious Always

    Curious Always Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I can't and won't speak for MJ.

    For me, though? CCD was somewhat traumatic. I was once screamed at by a sister for not renouncing Satan loudly enough. She knew I did, but I wasn't a loud kid. She embarrassed me. This is but one of more than a dozen reasons that my early church caused me anxiety. She forced me to scream my denouncement, over and over, in front of laughing kids. I wasn't popular, by any stretch. Any excuse to laugh at me was a treat for them.

    Religion brought me nothing but angst.
     
    Last edited: Dec 28, 2020
  25. JakeJ

    JakeJ Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Not being religious but familiar with Protestantism, it seems many people who call themselves Christians spiritually really more had an organized wealth-and-health corporate organized religion ideology sort of like belonging to a political party and believing your side's politicians will make your and everyone else's life better.

    In Protestant Christianity as a spiritual matter, a person's life's success in wealth and health is completely irrelevant. Rather, while no one can determine how they are born into this life, they do as to how they are born into eternity/next life in immortality. The more a person holds the faith within suffering, the more devoted they are to sacrificially serving and remaining loyal to God - the more the person is rewarded in rebirth. Thus, a person who ends up denying God because life got tougher rather than easier never really was a Christian. They were just looking for a short cut cheating way to worldly success.

    I'll mention this again. My wife is very religious in the sense of both very spiritual and very involved with the church. Her church involvement is out of respect to her parents and her heritage. She will openly say if born to Hindu parents she would be Hindu. Her religious beliefs are her spiritual beliefs - not the same as organized religion. She never asks God for anything for herself. God knows better than her. Rarely she will ask God what God would have her do as what she should do is the question, not what God will do for her in this lifetime.
     

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