Pakistani men can beat wives 'lightly,' Islamic council says

Q4:34 (four translations, no less) says to beat you, and that you are inferior to men, and that men are in charge of you (i.e. that you are not equal to men).....yes, all in one verse. How does that make you feel about religion?
http://www.bible.ca/islam/islam-wife-beating-koran-4-34.htm

 

I'm not religious. I'm agnostic, leaning towards atheist.

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I love it when people try to play the "gotcha" game with me.

 

That's because you are too moral, as you can't buy into the hatred and bigotry of religion - whether it's Q4:34 saying you should be beaten, or the Bible/Jesus saying that someone like say Gandhi is such scum that he's going to burn for eternity, you are too moral to be religious. Even Buddha was a racist, as he said in the "32 signs of of great man" (number 11 or number 14) that his own skin color (goldish) was the sign of a great man - clearly a racial supremacist - Hitler had a preferred skin color as well.

Modern Secular Humanism has no racial supremacism in it - it's too fair, too loving, and too compassionate.

 

I'm not a biblical scholar by any stretch. I'm familiar with religious beliefs, and I just simply don't believe them to be true. It all sounds too far-fetched for me. I operate on logic and reality when at all possible.

 

Yes, we agree that Christianity is vile, and that Christians should grow a moral back-bone and improve their barbaric/hateful texts - if they love their women, that is.
Example:
Abandon your wife and children for Jesus and he'll give you a big reward....Matthew 19:29 believes this.

Jesus shows disrespect for his mother and family by asking, "Who is my mother, or my brethren?" when he is told that his family wants to speak with him. Mark 3:31-34 says this.

Jesus tells Mary Magdalene not to touch him because he hasn't yet ascended -- as if the touch of a woman would defile him and somehow prevent him from ascending into heaven. (See John 20:17)

Women are commanded by Paul to be silent in church and to be obedient to men. He further says that "if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in church." 1 Corinthians 14:34-35
.......notme, would you condemn Paul for saying this, and condemn Jesus for not correcting this, over the last 2000 years of "watching over us"? I would, how about you?


From: http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/women/nt_list.html

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Love Muslims, hate Islam/religion.

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Women are commanded by Paul to be silent in church and to be obedient to men. He further says that "if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in church." 1 Corinthians 14:34-35
.......ChrisL, would you condemn Paul for saying this, and condemn Jesus for not correcting that, over the last 2000 years of "watching over us"? I would, how about you?

 

You are right, it's not in the Qur'an, but in the other Islamic texts.

If, repeat if, you went back in a time machine (yes, this is hypothetical of course) and just say saw Mohammad saying that women are deficient in intelligence (he might or might not have said that - I wasn't there), would you, like me, condemn him for saying that? Seems like the right thing to do. What say you? I assume that you believe that equality is the way to go?

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Oh come on Chris - you don't believe in a magic talking donkey, a magic talking snake, and a magic invisible talking dead guy!?

 

Sure, but you must admit that we women have trained the Christian men to obey OUR commands.

 

Yes, good work - the less that men follow Paul/Jesus/Bible the better off the world will be.

The Bible/Paul/Jesus also hate innocent people so much (gays) that their book says to kill gays in multiple places (they're very serious about this because they mention it multiple times, and that gays are such scum that they can't get into the elitist pearly-gated community in the sky.) Which do you think is worse, the religious hatred of women, or hatred of gays? Do you love the gays that you know, or do you hate them like Bible/Paul/Jesus do? In other words, are you morally better than Bible/Paul/Jesus, or not?

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ChrisL's 10 Commandments:
1. Obey your woman.
2. Reread Commandment #1.
3. ......
4. .....

 

I've got nothing at all negative to say about gay people. I have met some very nice and respectable gay people. I believe in equal rights for gay people and all people who are citizens of the great United States of America. I don't buy into the transgender nonsense, but I don't believe they should be abused or anything like that. Considering that they are citizens and probably pay taxes and contribute to our economy, they too are entitled to the same rights as anyone else. HOWEVER, having said that, they don't deserve any "special privileges" either, but I digress. We are getting way off topic here.

 

1. Welcome to this forum!

2. I've always wanted to ask a person from Pakistan this question: can you condemn Mohammad and your nation for having punishments against what we most value in America (free speech)? I'm talking about the ridiculous blasphemy laws. Can you condemn Mohammad and your nation for it's ridiculous prohibition against free speech? As a Modern Secular Humanist, I'm far more secure in my beliefs that Mohammad/Pakistanis are (no offence), because I actually welcome people strongly questioning my belief system - since them doing so helps me take a hard look at my belief system, so maybe I can improve it after I hear their critique. What say you?

 

Great answer.

You have a stronger sense of fairness than Bible/Jesus/Paul did - I'm impressed with you. You just spoke up for gay rights, but the Bible says to kill gays, in multiple places. Paul said they'll burn in hell. Jesus never spoke up for gay rights (even though the book about him says to kill them.) When was the last time someone said that you were better than Jesus on an important moral issue?

 

Yikes. I'm no Jesus. Lol. It's CHRIS, not CHRIST. I have too much of a temper to be a Jesus.

 

I'm not sure what I would do, considering I would probably be a poor oppressed peasant woman. Lol. On a personal level, I would definitely condemn a Muhammed though. Would I come out against him publicly and risk the good probability of being buried up to my neck and stoned to death by a bunch of angry dudes? I can't say because luckily I've never been in such an unfortunate situation.

 

That's good - you not only believe in equal rights, but you are obviously not a supremacist either.

Jesus was of course an extreme supremacist - you and I and Einstein and Gandhi are going to be sent to brutal torture in his barbaric system - John 14:6, etc., but those that suck up to him get "special privileges" in his country club in the sky. When you go to bed tonight please realize that you are better, on this vital moral issue, than even the person who more people consider the best person of all time. You're that good.

 

I hear you - you value your own neck, like we all do.

But what if you went back in a time machine and saw 54 year-old Mohammad having sex with little 9 year-old Aisha like the Islamic texts say he did....would you try to stop him? I've never conversed with a Muslim who was moral enough to say "yes" to that question - so if you anwser "yes" realize that you might be more moral, on this important moral issue (child rape), than at least 1.5 BILLION people. Muslims do often believe in zakat (charity), however, for example, so I like some of their beliefs.
Your agnosticism/atheism allows you to say the right thing, and not give tacit approval to horrific child rape like Muslims constantly do.
http://www.faithfreedom.org/Articles/sina/ayesha.htm

 

I would like to think I would do something to stop that from happening. I might take the little girl and run away with her. That is highly disturbing how they celebrate pedophilia. Not many things disturb me more than pedophiles. Makes me feel absolute disgust to the core of my being.

 

Funny.

But actually you are better than even someone as great as Jesus. Let me test you right here: Chris, if you were given the alleged opportunity that Jesus had, to save humanity by having yourself tortured to death, would you do that? To make this even better than Jesus' example: what if you were tortured for twice as long as Jesus allegedly was, and by doing so would only save TWO DOZEN of your favorite family/friends....would you take that deal? I would, even though it would be horrific - but I love them that much.
If you would take this, then the, shall we say "cost-effectiveness" of your sacrifice, would of course be far far more than Jesus' sacrifice - twice the torture for a fraction of the reward (save only two dozen people vs. saving all of humanity). If you say "yes" then you are likely more caring than even Jesus' sacrifice was. You just haven't been given that opportunity, like Jesus allegedly was, and that's not your fault.

What say you?

 

Gosh, I have no idea. That doesn't sound very tempting, I must admit. Lol. If it was to save my child, then yes.

 

You just showed that you are more moral than at least 1.5 billion people (ok, maybe 5% of the 1.5 billion Muslims would stop Mohammad, so 1.4 billion people, say.) I'm not putting Muslims down, just showing how great you are. They are too afraid to condemn him, even for child rape....so you are more fearless than they are, as well.

Since you have risen to an even higher moral level than they are at, you might want to consider helping them out by showing them a better way - by showing them this higher moral level that you've risen to. Just a suggestion.

Have a great weekend.

 

Aw shucks. Lol. I'm sure plenty of people would disagree with you on that though. You have a nice weekend too.

 

So you'd put up with more torture than Jesus allegedly put up with (that's brave of you), and not even if it was to save all of humanity like Jesus, but to just save ONE person! That would make the sacrifice that you are willing to do be far far more, let's say, "worthwhile/admirable/sacrificial", than even Jesus' alleged sacrifice! And Jesus' alleged sacrifice is the #1 thing that Christians admire him for. So you're showing us that you are more moral, more caring, more willing to sacrifice for love, than even the most admired person in world history (Jesus.) I admire you for that, of course, and your child is obviously lucky to have a mother who cares for them as much as you do.

So the next time you see a bumper sticker that says "What Would Jesus Do?", instead, it should say "What Would ChrisL Do?"

PS I also assume that if you were in Jesus shoes you would have taken a mere 15 seconds out of your life to say to your disciples "write this down, urge people to end slavery w/in the next 30 years", therefore speaking out against the most vile human rights abuse in world history. But maybe I'm assuming too much about you.

 

Lol! Now THAT is funny. "What would ChrisL do?"

Well, let's not forget that Jesus and the Bible were from a completely different era than where we are today. Like a completely different world from where we are today.

 

Nonsense! I think they are wrong, then.
For example, I also get the feeling that you are so caring that you couldn't give your child verse 5:33 in the Qur'an because it says to crucify people (yes, crucify, the most barbaric treatment I can think of.)....that's because your love/compassion for people is too great.
I'm right, aren't I?
If I'm right, then not only are you more caring than at least 1.4 billion people, but you are more caring than even the worlds' #1 most influential person of all time (Mohammad), according to http://www.iupui.edu/~msaiupui/thetop100.html?id=61

PS great forum members like "Crank", and "Durandal", etc. would also do that, so there are many compassionate, moral, caring forum members on this forum.

 

Well thanks. I appreciate the compliment. You are too kind.

 

It sounds like I believe in you more than you believe in yourself.

So you're saying that god is not timeless, that god just conformed to the barbaric norms of mere mortal humans who lived 2000 years ago (that the all-knowing god didn't know any better), that god simply doesn't know right from wrong like even your child probably does, that god doesn't care enough about people to have ever taken 15 seconds to tell us that slavery is dead wrong. It's the same god back then as it is now, the Bible says.

The fact remains - you are showing us that you are more moral than god is....period, since god has never spoken up against slavery, yet you are far far more moral than that, because you love people so much that you condemn slavery. God even says that it's ok to beat slaves to death(!), as long as the death drags out past about 48 hours or so - http://www.evilbible.com/evil-bible-home-page/slavery/ But I bet you've taught your child to move morally way beyond god's morality.

PS 18 Biblical verses say that JESUS IS GOD, so you appear to be more moral than Jesus when it comes to important moral issues (such as slavery, in the example.)