Islamophobia? What really are you afriad of?

Greed and self importance.. They have to make a living... Islamophobia is a product sold to the ignorant. They aren't much different from Hal Lindsey, Falwell and Pat Robertson.

 

Actually, not too funny that, huh? But excellent point! And I know what it suggests. But my New Years resolution won't permit me to say it.

 

So what, I'm just stating my opinion, I don't see how Islam is American or what it's even doing here... My opinion is that the Founders' would not approve, and as that sort of Conservative, I see no reason for them to be here at all...

 

I never said kick them out, only that they should leave. In all hopes of their own volition, otherwise it might happen another way...

 

They're dead - we're alive.

 

Actually some of the founders were very interested in some aspects of Islam .. like equality, Shura council and Majlis.. I'll see if I can find you a link.

Islam has been in America since the first slaves arrived.

 

So? I'm alive and don't think that Islam needs to be in America... What does that make me? Half-dead at the most?

 

Bro - I swear to God, the Right are driving me to the Left!

 

I'm part of my own belief, don't judge the others... Tell me then, what 'should' I think, according to you... Is free thought dead now?

 

Islam, John Locke and Thomas Jefferson.

http://www.loc.gov/loc/lcib/0205/tolerance.html

 

Islam and Ben Franklin

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/frankie-martin/islam-the-founding-father_b_637106.html

 

No way. I respect your right to express whatever opinion you so desire. I just know some Muslims personally that are great people, good citizens, aren't into hating Jews and blowing themselves and others up, etc. In fact, I haven't met a single one (in this country) that thinks Allah desires them to destroy the Great Satan. They go to work, do their jobs, come home to their families, and are grateful for not having a lot of locals that want to kick them out just because they're Muslims.

You can believe what you want. My reference to the Right driving me to the Left was referring to the general manner that they regard these Americans. I get tired of hearing that bigoted bs. But I am 100% behind your right to believe whatever and express those beliefs in non-hamful ways. Help yourself. But if you really think that kicking Muslims out of the nation will make it a safer and better nation, then I think, IN MY OPINION, you've been nipping the kool-aid. But please, nip away. Whatever...

BTW - I'm not a huge fan of ANY of these Middle Easter religions. One day, they're gonna get a helluva lot of people killed. But I still know better than to trash the entire group of individuals - because, they ARE individuals. And the ones I've met are very nice and productive individuals at that.

 

The same Founders' that allowed slavery were very much interested in whatever deviance's it brought? Tell me more, by all means... The real point is this: we all know what the Founders' really believed, or we'd have seen plenty of other signatures on the Constitution... That is all that matters to me. If I'm going to believe in a rebellious nation, which had a lawful sovereign, I'll accept exactly what I'm given, and I'm not given bin this or bin that... Figure it out...

 

You don't have to guess what the Founding Fathers thought of Islam.. There is considerable correspondence of an intellectual nature among them... in the Library of Congress.

 

So which was the first Islamic diplomat allowed into the US? You know, actually recognized and given an embassy...

 

I don't remember I started reading this about the Founding Fathers and Islam some 15 years ago.. What I recall is their admiration of core principles of equality, social justice, consultation and consensus. Leadership by the brightest and best.. (electoral college) as opposed to one man one vote populist voting.

Clearly they were NOT advocating going to the mosque to convert.. but the were exploring freedom of religion and other systems.

 

That wasn't the question, answer what I asked...

 

I didn't understand your question.. Were you moving the goalpost to issues of "slavery"?

What did you mean by deviance and "rebellious nation"?

 

I'm going to post this for the heck of it, in case there's others that are where I was. Maybe they'll get a tiny motivation to re-examine their minds and reality. If not, BFD. I don't really care one way or the other. Unfortunately, I won't be able to respond for quite a while - duty beckons.

I was an anti-Muslim for quite a while. I read some of Robert Spenser’s books and I even studied Ibn Waraq’s "Why I’m not a Muslim" and "The Origins of the Koran: Classic Essays on Islam's Holy Book". And they were just the beginning. Among others that I can't even recall, , I read Mark Steyn’s Islamophobic classic, "After America", and as a result, was an Islamaphobe extraordinaire. I was a schooled anti-Muslim - had it running out of my ears. And I wasn't half bad at debating and showing how wretched the religion is and how misled it's people are. And I still believe that... BUT....

Then I started meeting real Muslims. The Kool-aid tasted right but the hatred part of it was quite bitter. I decided that no matter what percentage of crap these books had going for them, they missed one important thing. Muslims (especially in America) are mostly like everybody else – individuals. There’s good ones, like I know – and bad ones, like the pathetic Kool-aiders that blowup bus loads of innocent kids and crash big buildings in NYC. And even if there are more of the later than the former, which I seriously doubt, I decided to judge these people on an individual basis - like I did most everyone else. And I’m not regretting that decision.

As for the religion itself – uhhh, NO THANKS!!! Just more ancient Middle Eastern bs in my opinion. But I respect the right of these people to believe it. IMO, it's their own special brand of Kool-aid that I'd certainly just as soon not partake of thank you.

Maybe some anti-Christianity folks can take something from this, as well. Think what ya want about the religion, but it's the people that really count in your estimating. You might be surprised at how screwy you own head can be in the eyes of other Kool-aiders, because in more ways than most of us can imagine, we're ALL partakers of some form of Kool-aid, whether we realize it or not.

Be kind - but not stupid.

 

No moving of anything, the question was which Islamic nation was given it's first embassy and formally recognized by the US and when... That should answer all sorts of questions of what was or wasn't accepted or believed by the Founders'...

 

What answers the question is reading their correspondence.

 

What answers the question is reading their correspondence.

 

Not at all, what answers the question is the actual reality of the situation, as there were far more signatories to the Constitution than there were writers and receivers of a few letters... Dance all you want, it only proves your point is moot...

 

The Founding Fathers had voluminous correspondence... Thousands upon thousands of letter.

Oman – United States relations are bilateral relations between Oman and the United States. The U.S. relationship with Oman dates back 200 years, with American merchant ships making port calls in Oman as early as 1790. Oman was the first Arab nation to recognize the United States, sending an envoy in 1841.. Located in Muscat.

 

Sending and envoy in 1841? How many Founders' were alive then? Which was the first Islamic Embassy in the US? Still dancing, eh?