First century church may have numbered 400,000... did the majority convert to Islam?

Discussion in 'Religion & Philosophy' started by DennisTate, Jan 17, 2015.

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Palestinian people = grandchildren of second century church, does this idea move you?

  1. Yes, I do find this idea profoundly moving.

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    33.3%
  2. No... I try to be completely unbiased about such issues.

    1 vote(s)
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  3. This is interesting and I will research this further.

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  4. I think this could positively alter the Middle East conflict.

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Multiple votes are allowed.
  1. One Mind

    One Mind Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Not sure if the dna research done on the ashkenazi jews jives with your beliefs on this. But perhaps it does. I would think the middle eastern dna found in this group which covers 80 percent of all jews, would be evidence they came from the middle east and interbred. And then the evidence in the dna that 20 thousand years ago, this same line branched off from the other people in the middle east. So two ties to the middle east and then mixing this in with non middle eastern people. Looks like the jews moved out and into eastern europe. And looks like some non jews converted. A rare thing indeed.
     
  2. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    InterestinG historic note!!

    I will say, though that it should not be a factor in ANYTHING concerning politics today - borders, leadership or anything else.

    In NO case do we question ancient times in order to exclude or include land today.

    And, we certainly would not suggest that there could be ANYTHING at any time in history, ever, that would justify the ethnic cleansing that is going on in West Bank today.

    By ANY definition, that is no more than an historic humanitarian criminal offense that has so far been carried out over a number of decades with absolutely zero interest on the part of Israel to stop committing that crime.

    It's especially difficult for me to understand how Christians can continue to support such a criminal venture.
     
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  3. DennisTate

    DennisTate Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    But are we North Americans in any position to condemn Israel considering what we did since 1492?

    Matthew Fox Ph.D:.
     
  4. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    ABSOLUTELY!

    The fact that we have committed crimes in the past does NOT mean that we should allow historic levels of humanitarian crime. We're not somehow blocked from all humanitarian influence throughout eternity.

    And, we're in perfect position in this case, as it is trivially easy within our means to stop an ongoing humanitarian atrocity without even using military force.

    Instead, we're going the exact opposite direction, actually SUPPORTING that atrocity. Nobody can see that as acceptable - or consistent with what America stands for either in terms of law or in terms of our stand on treatment of humans.
     
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  5. DennisTate

    DennisTate Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Good point....... you could well be correct.....
    and for the record I am hoping that something rather specific
    may emerge relevant to Israel and the Palestinians from here in Nova Scotia, Canada.

    Posts #17 and 18 will explain what I have in mind. I would be honored to get your feedback on this:

    http://www.politicalforum.com/index...ump-has-a-4-3-trillion-dollar-problem.525406/

    M. P. Bill Casey... President Trump has a 4.3 trillion dollar problem....

    ... that you and the people of Cumberland - Colchester are in a perfect position to assist him with.
     
  6. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    I see your two links as addressing your ideas on water and your ideas on religion. If I missed something, please let me know. I pretty much skipped through the religion piece, as I see that as irrelevant - and if it IS relevant, that would be seriously bad news, because no political direction is going to resolve an issue of religion, I think. States need to accommodate multiple religions - there really is no other choice.

    So, I don't see any reason for solving those two issues before we solve the problem of the ongoing humanitarian atrocity being perpetrated by Israel today - leading to permanent borders of sovereign states (or state, if that's the direction). And, we can not accept an apartheid state that simply continues ethnic cleansing within its borders.

    So resolving the water issue is a political issue which can not be solved in an equitable manner while one of the involved populations is being ruled by external military law in which they have no representation. Deals made with one party having a gun to their head are not legitimate and can not be considered lasting.

    Once Palestine is a fully independent sovereign state water issues in Palestine may be resolved by that government - along with external help as is offered and accepted by Palestine.

    Or, once there is one state where citizens have equal rights and representation, then water issues can be resolved.
     
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  7. DennisTate

    DennisTate Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Thank you for this fascinating reply.......
    There is a friend of mine on this forum who is capable of replying to you
    with a level of wisdom and depth of understanding that I couldn't manage if I
    sat here and typed for the next hour..........
    so I will send it off to him but........

    one angle on this was explained to me by Mr. Sigmund Ivarsson......
    author of The Petra Project.

    Basically the Petra Project is a nine meter wide tunnel from out in the Mediterranean Sea to somewhere in the area of the Dead Sea that could transport somewhere around two hundred million cubic meters of ocean water to the area of the Dead Sea annually.

    Sigmund feels that the Israeli Knesset would never agree to the Petra Project......UNLESS.....
    it was connected to Jewish control of part of the Temple Mount and permission for the Orthodox Jewish community to rebuild their Third Temple... and offer kosher sacrifices in it........

    ...... if this agreement was attached then the Ultra Orthodox Jews could put pressure on the Knesset to agree to the Petra Project......
    and set in motion a series of events that would transform the Israeli - Palestinian political conflict.

    The reasoning for putting the promise of water ahead of a political resolution...... is it gives both sides something to focus on that they can sell to their people......
    so that steps toward peace continue to be made.

    And for the moment I would like to introduce you to my friend who I consider to be one of the most brilliant men that I have ever spoken to by phone:

    http://www.politicalforum.com/index...et-is-brilliant.363830/page-5#post-1068908237

    God's Peace Plan for the Holy Land... this booklet is brilliant!



     
    Last edited: Apr 4, 2018
  8. Battle3

    Battle3 Well-Known Member

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    You have made this same argument several times before, and have been refuted each time. When will you learn?

    Read Acts, James, Ephesians, and Romans. Read it all, don't just grab little bits out of context.

    All of Romans is a scholastic argument for salvation by grace through faith, not works or the Mosaic Law. The structure of Romans is a scholastic diatribe, a Greek structure for a logical argument.

    Read Romans, when you understand it, then we will move on and clear up your confusion over the Sermon on the Mount.
     
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  9. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    I do not believe that Palestine is going to concede the Temple Mount on the chance that Israel might become slightly more amenable to legitimate negotiation.

    Seriously - does that sound like a rational choice for Palestine?

    Today, Netanyahu states flatly that there will be NO negotiation. Period.

    And frankly, that's been his view in the past as well. For many years he as demanded that he be allowed to continue stealing land from Palestinian property owners even if there is a negotiation - FOR BORDERS!!!


    The fastest direction on this right now is for the US to demand a halt to ethnic cleansing and a disbandment of all settlements that even Israel considers illegal - which is only one of the requirements of the Bush "Roadmap".

    Barring that, the next hope would be that Europe finds a way, possibly with the help of China, Russia, Egypt, and others. Perhaps India could choose to start providing some leadership in favor of it's status as the world's largest democracy.

    The UN is pretty much hamstrung. Even though almost every nation is in agreement, the US holds the veto in the UNSC - the only branch containing the ability to take action. And, that has prevented the UN from having any effective influence in this ongoing atrocity.
     
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  10. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    Aren't all those books written by the same author?

    More importantly, from Romans 5
    [/QUOTE]
    But by your hard and impenitent heart you are storing up wrath for yourself on the day of wrath when God's righteous judgment will be revealed. For he will render to every man according to his works: to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life; but for those who are factious and do not obey the truth, but obey wickedness, there will be wrath and fury. There will be tribulation and distress for every human being who does evil, the Jew first and also the Greek, but glory and honor and peace for every one who does good, the Jew first and also the Greek. For God shows no partiality.
     
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  11. DennisTate

    DennisTate Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    But they will not have to cede the entire Temple Mount......
    only the area needed for the actual Jerusalem Third Temple.....
    and related sacrifices.

    The actual Temple of Solomon was probably in the area of the Gihon Spring
    which is a nice distance away from either the Dome of the Rock or the Al Aqsa Mosque.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ernest_L._Martin
     
    Last edited: Apr 4, 2018
  12. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    I don't understand this deal even slightly.

    Why would Palestine give up MORE of Jerusalem at a time when Israel is already stealing the land of Palestinian residents of Jerusalem and carrying out other thefts throughout West Bank?

    This just doesn't hit me as logical by any measure.
     
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  13. DennisTate

    DennisTate Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Well.... they might just begin to see that President Obama's older half brother's interpretation of Islam.......
    might actually be more logical.......
    more truthful......
    and more accurate than the politicized version of the Koran that is understood as zero Jews surviving into the Era of Mahdi.

    Is Malik Obama one of the worlds' most courageous Muslims?
    In my opinion.....YES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


     
    Last edited: Apr 4, 2018
  14. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    Well, that has nothing to do with ending the atrocity being carried out in West Bank.

    I'm sure there is plenty of property in West Bank that Israel still wants to take - for example, ALL of it.

    What I'm asking is what does Palestine get for giving even more land to Israel than Israel is already stealing.

    Why should Palestine support the notion of an ever expanding Israel?

    Isn't Israel's continued taking of land owned by Palestinians the very heart of the continuing atrocity?

    Why would Palestine encourage that?
     
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  15. DennisTate

    DennisTate Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Good questions........
    you really should read Mr. Robert Mendelson's plan......
    it reminds me of The Bermigo Plan by Mr. Gordon Miller if you are familiar with that one......
    but it is unique.

    http://godspeaceplan.blogspot.ca/2014/07/gods-peace-plan-for-holy-land-peace.html
     
  16. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    Interesting.

    Historically, Israel has been totally opposed to a one state solution as they want to be a "Jewish State". This has included religious differentiation between Israeli citizens based on religion - with moves to make in an actual official differentiation under all law. Today, Arab citizens can not live wherever they want to live, for example. There are Arabs in Israel who left due to the war and then returned and are citizens, but are still not allowed to occupy the homes they left. Also, the right of return is something that Israel has adamantly opposed, because it will help lead to an Arab majority within the foreseeable future. Also, as a result of the Bush "Roadmap" Netanyahu actually tried to relocate Israelis who were living in illegal settlements. That caused major, major conflict - more than Netanyahu felt he could sustain. There was armed opposition between Israeli settlers and Israeli forces. Thus that attempt was halted.

    As for Palestinians, it could be a tough sell to tell them that although they have a significant increment of UN recognition as a nation, they have to give that up and put their fate in the hands of those who have been ethnically cleansing them, who treat Israeli Arabs as second class citizens, who have had a continuing war on Gaza for more than a decade while refusing to negotiate.

    That seems like an incredibly tough sell.

    I hope for a lesser, more practical (I hope) immediate halt to ethnic cleansing and ALL expansion of Israeli holdings in West Bank - a cessation of all building. A halt to ALL building of more wall. An opening of areas for travel by Palestinians who are often prevented from farming land they own, visiting relatives, etc. A full restoration of water rights. And, West Bank Palestinians must be under Palestinian civilian law - not foreign military law.

    From there, I would hope for a negotiation of the permanent resolution. I would hope that the above realignment would bring rational negotiation back into the picture. That could still be single state more like your friend specifies. However, I suspect Israel would have to decide to start treating non-Jews with equality, rather than their current second class status which Netanyahu and others have been trying to move from the current more or less unofficial reality to being a fundamental of Israeli law and carried out more broadly.

    I would suggest that if there is a two state solution in some cases (such as with fairly purchased land?) Israelis could continue living in Palestine settlements, but they would be citizens of Palestine and under Palestinian civilian law - just like non-Jewish citizens within Israel. I'm not so sure that forcible removal is a great idea. But, having settlement enclaves under foreign law can't be seriously considered.
     
  17. JakeStarkey

    JakeStarkey Banned

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    Quite a number of the Jews in Palestine died in war and famine in the 7th and 8th centuries.

    I am sure many converted to Islam.

    I bet a lot of Palestinian Christians did as well.
     
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  18. Battle3

    Battle3 Well-Known Member

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    No. Luke (a Gentile and a physician) wrote Acts. Paul wrote Romans and Ephesians. James (the leader of the Christian Church in Jerusalem, and possibly the brother of Jesus) wrote James.



    You mean Romans 2:5-11. Romans 5 clearly states that salvation is by grace through faith.

    Romans is a formally structured argument. The thesis is stated in Romans 1:16-17 - the salvation of everyone (righteousness) through faith. All the rest of Romans argues this thesis or addresses potential counter arguments.

    Chapter 1:1-15 is the intro

    1:16-17 is the thesis statement

    1:18 to 3:20 is the demonstration by antithesis, it argues the thesis from the perspective of the opposite - and that is why if you take part of Chapter 2 (as in versus 5-11) out of the context of the document you can claim salvation through works, or through works and faith, which is not what Paul is stating.

    3:20-31 is the thesis restated, Chap 4 is demonstration of the thesis, Chap 5 is the exposition of the thesis, Chaps 6-11 addresses anticipated objections to the thesis (one being why did God give the Mosaic Law), 12:1 - 15:13 are practical implications of the thesis, and 15:14 to the end (16:27) conclusion.

    Romans has to be read in its entirety to understand the argument.
     
  19. JakeStarkey

    JakeStarkey Banned

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    Read James, particularly chapters 4 and 5. Faith is meaningless unless it inspires good works.
     
  20. Giftedone

    Giftedone Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    None of the above has anything to do with the fact that the council of Jerusalem had nothing to do with sola fide.

    James 2 states directly that faith alone can not save someone .. He calls this doctrine useless saying that even demons have faith .. then goes on to stress how works are important.

    Your claim that you have refuted what is stated in James or any other of my arguments is a nonsensical falsehood. Ephesians and Romans are the words of Paul and not the words of Jesus. In fact Ephesians was not even written by Paul.

    It is not my fault that the words of Jesus and brother James contradict the words of Paul.

    You are welcome to your opinion that Paul is correct and Jesus and James are not ... I just do not share this opinion.
     
  21. Battle3

    Battle3 Well-Known Member

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    You are wrong. James does not state that salvation is through works, and he does not disagree that salvation is through faith. James was at the Council of Jerusalem where it was unanimously decided that people need not follow the Mosaic Law because works does not lead to salvation. Salvation is not earned, it is a gift which is accepted or rejected.

    James (in James) argues that the result of salvation is works, true salvation results in a change in behavior, and that a salvation which does not manifest itself in works is pointless. Read all of James, not just a few selected versus taken out of context.
     
  22. Giftedone

    Giftedone Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Absolutely James 2 says that salvation is not through "faith alone" aka Sola Fide. This is why Martin Luther wanted James removed from Canon LOL.

    I have read all of James.. but since you are clearly ignorant of its contents .. Lets have a look shall we.

    So James is addressing "My Brothers and Sisters". What does he talk about in the first paragraph ? Works ... doing good to others .. not showing favoritism on the basis of riches and not discriminating.

    Next idea ... works - those who dishonor the poor blaspheme the name of Jesus.



    Next idea - works and more works "Love neighbor as self" calling this The Royal Law - not Just have faith in Jesus The royal law is about works.

    So after talking about good works works and more works .. James talks about "Faith" (obviously there were Christians who were touting this nonsensical belief at the time and that is what James is addressing)

    James begins with a question



    The answer to that question is decidedly and emphatically NO.



    James is not speaking in riddles but clearly. He says what good is it if a brother has no food and you say - Go in peace - but do nothing.. Obviously this does not do a person much good. Faith without deeds is "DEAD" says James.


    James says that he shows his faith through his deeds. It is through our deeds that our faith is realized. Then he slams "faith alone" again saying "Even demons have faith that God exists. Big deal he says... even demons belief that.



    Then James really gets harsh and calls those who belief in faith without deeds "Foolish" He then gives evidence that faith without deeds is useless using the examples of Abraham's sacrifice of Issac and Rehab the prostitute.
     
    Last edited: Apr 5, 2018
  23. Battle3

    Battle3 Well-Known Member

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    You can cut and paste all day, you are wrong because you seem to be deliberately misinterpreting James.

    Faith without deeds is not salvation through deeds and it does not refute salvation through faith alone.
     
  24. Giftedone

    Giftedone Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I did not say faith without deeds was salvation through deeds... this does not make any sense ?

    Since you can not come up with one passage that has been misinterpreted - your claim that I deliberately misinterpreted James is very funny :) and completely unsubstantiated.

    Standing on a soap box spinning around in circles crying "NO NO NO" prior to running to the playground to stick head deep in the sandbox of denial - is not an argument for much.
     
  25. Battle3

    Battle3 Well-Known Member

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    Deja vu. You have made these exact same claims several times before, I've dealt with them in detail before.

    You take verses out of context. Its the same as if I write "I do not believe there is no God", and you take a few words out of context and say "Battle3 wrote 'there is no God' so Battle3 believes in atheism".

    Or as another poster did, you claim Romans 2 argues deeds are required for salvation, but Romans 2 is Paul discussing the antithesis of his thesis (salvation through faith alone). If you don't bother to read and learn, if you just cut and paste snippets, then you misinterpret.

    Read James in its entirety. Until you do, there is no point in discussing this with you.
     
    Last edited: Apr 5, 2018

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