Lesbian couple attacked in London

No, I meant that you no longer have to sacrifice cows at the altar or somesuch, Jesus' sacrifice finished the job of salvation, and now all you have to do is accept it.

 

You're comparing Muslims to the KKK? I can see the analogy.

 

I personally don't think it's over until all the souls are saved the battle of heaven and hell has been fought. That's what I take that to mean.

 

Is it? Are you sure about that? Do the police typically identify suspects that are out on bail in the UK?

 

Of course. Muslims are the only people that attack gays.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matthew_Shepard

 

if you insist but I would disagree.

this seems to negate your statement. Why would you say it then?

 

Obviously my statement was ironic.
You and others seem to be concluding that the attackers in London must have been Muslims. I was showing that attacks on gays are not limited to attacks by Muslims.

 

Delete

 

Please show me where I claimed that attacks on gays are limited to Muslims, if you don't mind, I would like to correct that mistake.

Either quote to post or tell me the post a number you don't have to go through great lengths to show me I want to clear up it any miscommunication that may have happened.

 

I am absolutely 100% sincere I would love to clear up any miscommunication that happened.

So as not to cause this same miscommunication with some other poster or to better communicate my position to someone who would give me similar feedback I must know where it happened.

So please, if you don't mind tell me what I said that lead to this conclusion.

 

Well dur! So why is it essential that the police release info on what religion they are?

 

I didn't say that you claimed attacks on gays were limited to Muslims. I was using irony to make a point.

You did admit that you suspected the perps were Islamic (I base this on your post 241): "I have no problem admitting I was wrong to suspect that they were Islamic."

My point is that you and others suspected they were Islamic / Muslims based on the following line of "logic":
- Some Muslims attack gays/lesbians.
- There are Muslims in London.
- Two lesbians were attacked in London.
- Therefore the lesbians must have been (or probably were) attacked by Muslims.
The first three are true. I would not dispute any of that. What I dispute is the conclusion that you (initially) and others seem to have drawn.

That is not a logical conclusion from the facts. Gays and lesbians have been the targets of attacks for years. Decades. Centuries. Not just by Muslims but by all kinds of people, for all kinds of reasons. Jumping to the conclusion reveals a prejudice against Muslims by those who make that jump.

I am not discounting the possibility that this was a religiously motivated attack by Muslims. It is possible. But there are a whole host of other possibilities that others (and, I thought, you) seemed to have discounted because they were so willing to blame Muslims.

 

I do not think you did say attacks on gays are limited to Muslims, but I think the confusion comes from this post.

My contention is that to make that statement without evidence and in some ways against the little evidence we do have, would be the same as if I blamed the attack on skinheads. What goes on with this forum is a lot of misunderstanding some intentional and some genuine and very little attempt to actually reach a consensus which I thought was the purpose of debate. As an example whenever I respond to allegations made without evidence against the Muslim community I get questions like "why do you like Muslims?" or suggestions I am a Muslim. Where as I am just defending minorities when they are UNFAIRLY singled out through lack of evidence. I actually linked to just such a post about the Grenfell fire early in this thread.

I spent some time last night researching attacks against the LGBT community in the UK and what I found is very sad, attacks are on the increase and yes there is a more homophobic attitude within the Muslim community what is really scary is that is held by younger Muslims not older ones who I have had more interaction with. However this is not limited to just Muslims in fact I was astonished to find that there is an increase in evangelical christians in this country and they are actually working with some Muslim groups, Catholic Groups and even Jewish groups to stop LGBT education in the classroom. Sadly there is denial amongst the new left to recognise this. Certainly much of this prejudiced comes from the far right but those of us on the left should not ignore what is happening amongst religious communities as well. Prejudice is prejudice and it should condemned wherever it appears regardless of who it offends.

Getting back to this attack if you look at the evidence we do have it appears highly unlikely it was carried out because of Muslim homophobic attitudes much more likely to be drink, drugs or ignorance by mindless thugs.

 

you'll have to explain the how saying something completely different then what I said is ironic.

how did you come up with that this is the logic I used?

I have to tell you you're wrong because it's not but I'm still wondering how you formulated this.

I must ask didn't you tell me at what point I communicated that I have concluded anything. That was not my intent and I would like to clear up that mistake I'm just unaware of it.

please allow me to clear this up I'm not aware that I made the statement that I concluded anything and if I did I apologize for that miscommunication and I request that you show me where it is tuan's that I can correct it and better explain.

Because to conclude something or jumped to a conclusion was not my intent.

I would say based on the demographics of London that it's the most likely of scenarios.

Well, let's put it this way if the police found somebody that was hung to death and it clearly wasn't a suicide, and it was in a secluded place near Tempe Arizona it was determined that the person hung was gay, my first suspect would be someone from pastor Steven Andersons church because this character makes it known that he thinks gay people should be executed this isn't because he's Christian that's not because I'm quick to blame Christians. For instance I wouldn't suspect a member of the ELCA, that wouldn't suspect a member of the United Methodist congregation and it's based on what these people say.

So I'm not quick to blame Muslims I just understand that Islamic culture has much more of a predisposition to hating gay people. And I know that there is not just some Muslims in London there is a lot.

 

I suppose I left myself open to that.

If I was a betting man and I indeed betted on such things i would still place money on them being Muslim. But that's more about numbers then it is individuals.

well I did say a wager and a wager is a form of Gamble so if I were to bet on black at the roulette wheel I have no evidence that the ball will land on black.

but I didn't make this wager out of nothing, there is a large very new Islamic community with in London. People who follow Islam have a tendency to think differently about gay people then the average British Joe or Nigel if you will.

I'm unaware of the skinhead presents in London I don't doubt the exist in some capacity but I doubt the exist in a significant capacity. So the odds are against it. That being said I could be wrong but I don't believe I am.

for all of my talking's with different people on different subjects the only mind I have ever been able to change is my own. That being said I don't come here to find consensus honestly such a thing would be rather useless. I instead seek out people that disagree with me and try and have a discussion with them it doesn't always work out end I could be part of that problem. but the only way you're going to really know if your perspective is rational as if you except the perspectives of others. This is why you will see me not really discriminating with who I talk to if they're anti-semites racist people or whatever. Doing so makes me better understand my position and adjust it if I need to.

I hope that I haven't made it clear I have no beef with Muslims. If I didn't want to make it clear now. I don't have anything against Muslims. I am just not a fan of Islamic ideology but I feel that way about a lot of religions mostly the ones I know. But is a person who was part of a religion when I was growing up I know that the people are just part of it because they were born into it so I don't fault them I fault the teachings. I'm absolutely pro Renaissance.

well this makes more sense to me because younger people tend to be more impulsive and more prone to false dichotomies. While with age comes wisdom. End of the desire for harmony with one's environment.

There's a reason military recruiters prefer younger men and women as opposed to older people. It's not just because their youthful and full of energy, it's because their minds are impressionable and don't get me wrong I have nothing against young people I love him very much working with them talking to them.

this doesn't surprise me either. I must say I was not aware of this but I had my suspicions. And I think this boils down to the reaction of culture to a fast shift like London is facing with the influx of refugees. People in times of uncertainty and fear return to comforting things that they know.

There is a group of Christians here in the states that have decided to ramp up their activism. They have actually targeted the Orlando pride parade because it coincides with the visual for the anniversary of the pulse nightclub shooting. I just hope that my fellow gays lesbians transgenders and bisexuals in the presence of these people react not with anger. I think an all-out brawl is exactly what this group is looking for.

just remember the greatest weapon against prejudice hatred and vitriol is love.
[/QUOTE]
Gback to this attack if you look at the evidence we do have it appears highly unlikely it was carried out because of Muslim homophobic attitudes much more likely to be drink, drugs or ignorance by mindless thugs.[/QUOTE] I don't see it, but it is possible.

 

That was you jumping to a conclusion.

Do you know London? I used to live there. And was back again last week. Any attack on public transport late at night has a pretty high chance of being fuelled by alcohol - so not Muslims.

 

I admit the statement was poor communication. But it was not a conclusion. I said I wager on it meaning that would place a bet if I was a betting man and if I betted on such things.

I could be wrong

I know Muslims have a Prohibition of alcohol but that doesn't mean they don't drink it means that it's sinful in their religion.

 

Based on the limited facts we have - (a) age (b) four of the boys had British accents (c) one spoke Spanish.

(a) and (b) is any group in Britain. (c) I would guess that more than 95% of Spanish speakers are more likely to be Christian that Muslim.

And as for your demographics, why should 12% of the population make it more likely that they are the most likely guilty?

And the breakdown of religion and ethnicity in Camden Town is:

60% of registered patients in the borough are White, 29% are from a minority ethnic group, and 11% have no recorded ethnicity.

Christians account for 34% of the population. 12% are Muslim, 4.5% are Jewish, 1.4% Hindu, 1.3% Buddhist, 0.2% Sikh and 0.6% other religions. The proportions of Jewish and Muslim people have fallen slightly since 2001, but Camden still ranks 5th and 25th respectively of 348 local authorities in England and Wales

 

True, but that goes back to culture, not religion. Many things blamed on any religion can be traced back to culture. In too many cases, religion is used as a scapegoat or to control the masses

 

in this case the two are deeply intertwined.

Not in this case. Islam makes no bones about it's objection to homosexuality.

 

And if the North Ametican Man Boy Love Associstion makes a sizable donation to the democrst party who is going to attack them?

Conservatives

And who will bend themselves into a pretzel to defend them?

Liberals

Maybe not every liberal but more tan enough to make their point

 

I dont like them either

But that goes for 80-90 % of the other stuff on tv also

 

Prejudices against homosexuality were around long before religion and just incorporated into religion.

 

It's odd that no threads were created describing this event which happened just three months ago in Austin Texas which practically mirrors the event in London but with much more serious injuries. I wonder why (sarcasm):
Four Suspects Charged in Brutal Assault on Gay Couple
https://www.austinchronicle.com/new...ects-charged-in-brutal-assault-on-gay-couple/

Oh, it doesn't mention their religion or colour so they must be Muslim or black (more sarcasm)

 

the story includes their mug shots

Presumably any liberal who can read is at least not blind