Ranked Vote: What are the Nation's Top Issues Most Needing to be Addressed (US)?

Discussion in 'Opinion POLLS' started by Meta777, May 26, 2018.

  1. Meta777

    Meta777 Moderator Staff Member

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    So you think that the states had sovereignty after the revolutionary war...
    Well what about now? Do you think that state governments still hold or execute supreme/ultimate power over the land today?
    States having supreme or ultimate power would imply that there is no other power or authority above the state level.
    But....the federal level government still exists and regularly exercises authority over the states...am I wrong?

    -Meta
     
  2. Longshot

    Longshot Well-Known Member

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    Yes, the states won their sovereignty by winning the revolutionary war.
    Yes, the states formed a confederation and agreed to delegate certain enumerated powers to the general government they created by means of their treaty.
     
    Last edited: May 31, 2018
  3. Derideo_Te

    Derideo_Te Well-Known Member

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    The original Articles of Confederation proved to be ineffective and were subsequently replaced by the current Constitution that we have today.
     
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  4. Longshot

    Longshot Well-Known Member

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    I was referring to our current constitution. The states formed a confederation and agreed to delegate certain enumerated powers to the general government they created by means of their treaty.
     
  5. FreshAir

    FreshAir Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    foreign outsourcing and foreign import - jobs jobs jobs

    it's also a national security risk to have other foreign countries control all our data

    and the tariffs should be for goods, not natural resources
     
    Last edited: Jun 1, 2018
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  6. Meta777

    Meta777 Moderator Staff Member

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  7. rtts48

    rtts48 Member

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    campaign finance reform. No big money donors to ANY candidate.
     
  8. Meta777

    Meta777 Moderator Staff Member

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    As Derideo_Te pointed out, the Articles of Confederation were replaced by the U.S. Constitution.
    And a constitution is a little different from a treaty. For instance...

    Would you say that a treaty we have with...oh say, France...supersedes or is higher in authority than our own constitutional law?
    and, second question...
    Would you say that our U.S. Constitution supersedes or is higher in authority than state law?

    -Meta
     
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  9. Longshot

    Longshot Well-Known Member

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    When they entered into their treaty, the states delegate to the general government certain powers regarding interstate trade and common defense. they agreed that laws made to carry out these powers would be the supreme law of the land.

    That's how treaties among sovereign states work. They delegate some powers in order to receive a perceived benefit. As long as a state wishes to remain a party to the treaty, it must abide by the terms to which it agreed.
     
  10. Meta777

    Meta777 Moderator Staff Member

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    By general government, you mean the federal government. Right?
    If the federal government laws (to include the U.S. Constitution) are the supreme law of the land,
    and the state laws are not the supreme law of the land, then states,
    per the definition of sovereignty I posted earlier, cannot be considered sovereign entities.

    -Meta
     
  11. Longshot

    Longshot Well-Known Member

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    Only a sovereign state can ratify a treaty.

    A state may, via treaty, subordinate certain powers to those of the treaty, just as it may withdraw from the treaty. The subordination exists only so long as the state that is party to the treaty agrees to remain in said treaty.
     
  12. Meta777

    Meta777 Moderator Staff Member

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    Sure, I can get on board with that. So let's say that prior to the U.S. constitution, the states were in fact sovereign entities.
    Exactly how many treaties have individual states ratified since then? Are you familiar with Article 1 Section 10 of the U.S. Constitution?

    -Meta
     
  13. Longshot

    Longshot Well-Known Member

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    They were. We know this:

    "His Brittanic Majesty acknowledges the said United States, viz., New Hampshire, Massachusetts Bay, Rhode Island and Providence Plantations, Connecticut, New York, New Jersey, Pennsylvania, Maryland, Virginia, North Carolina, South Carolina and Georgia, to be free sovereign and independent states, that he treats with them as such, and for himself, his heirs, and successors, relinquishes all claims to the government, propriety, and territorial rights of the same and every part thereof."

    None, because the terms of the treaty they ratified specified that the would not do so.
    Yes, I know you're Meta.
     
  14. Meta777

    Meta777 Moderator Staff Member

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    If the states are no longer allowed to ratify treaties due to the Constitution,
    then by your own admission the states are not sovereign entities.
    Well...assuming of course that sovereignty implies that the entity can ratify treaties...

    -Meta
     
  15. Longshot

    Longshot Well-Known Member

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    They agreed in the treaty to not engage in any other treaties. They did this when they, as sovereign states, ratified the treaty constituting the united states.

    As I said in one of my previous posts, when a sovereign state enters into a treaty, it typically agrees to some limits on its actions. That's why treaties exists in the first place.
     
    Last edited: Jun 2, 2018
  16. Meta777

    Meta777 Moderator Staff Member

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    Right, so they were sovereign entities before enacting the Constitution, but not afterwards.

    -Meta
     
  17. Longshot

    Longshot Well-Known Member

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    Nope. They are sovereign states that have entered into a treaty. One of the terms of this treaty is that none of them enter into any other treaty.
     
  18. Meta777

    Meta777 Moderator Staff Member

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    By accepting such terms, they give up their sovereignty.
    This is in exchange for becoming a part of the union.

    -Meta
     
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  19. Longshot

    Longshot Well-Known Member

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    Not really. Any of the sovereign states may exit the treaty any time it chooses. They still maintain their legal sovereignty. And then they would withdraw the powers they delegated to the general government.
     
  20. Meta777

    Meta777 Moderator Staff Member

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    The Supreme Court disagrees with you, and the Civil War suggests it is a bad idea regardless.

    -Meta
     
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  21. Longshot

    Longshot Well-Known Member

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    I don't see any language in the treaty stating otherwise. Can you point to the language in the treaty that says a state may not leave the treaty?
     
  22. Meta777

    Meta777 Moderator Staff Member

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    The Texas v. White Supreme court ruling cites the Preamble of the U.S. Constitution.

    "The Union of the States never was a purely artificial and arbitrary relation. It began among the Colonies, and grew out of common origin, mutual sympathies, kindred principles, similar interests, and geographical relations. It was confirmed and strengthened by the necessities of war, and received definite form and character and sanction from the Articles of Confederation. By these, the Union was solemnly declared to "be perpetual." And when these Articles were found to be inadequate to the exigencies of the country, the Constitution was ordained "to form a more perfect Union." It is difficult to convey the idea of indissoluble unity more clearly than by these words. What can be indissoluble if a perpetual Union, made more perfect, is not?"

    https://www.law.cornell.edu/supremecourt/text/74/700
    Supreme Court Justices since then, to include the late Antonin Scalia have made similar observations.

    -Meta
     
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  23. Longshot

    Longshot Well-Known Member

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    Can you point to the language in the treaty that says a state may not leave the treaty?
     
  24. Meta777

    Meta777 Moderator Staff Member

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    I just did.

    -Meta
     
  25. Longshot

    Longshot Well-Known Member

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    What article and section?
     

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