Socialism 101

Discussion in 'Political Opinions & Beliefs' started by Str8Edge, Jan 7, 2014.

  1. Str8Edge

    Str8Edge New Member

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    We see a lot of confusion in political debates about socialism. I see the main confusion stems around the fact that socialism has a political component and an economic component.

    A. Politically-Socialism is founded on egalitarianism. Every citizen of the state has the same right to economic goods as any other, regardless of their ability to create, produce etc. We see this ideology behind modern day progressives e.g. you deserve a "living" wage regardless of what you produce, the demonization of anyone who's financially better off regardless of their extra skill, creativity etc.

    B. Economically-In order to ensure the equal distribution of economic goods, the state determines what to produce and who will produce. There's only a handful of command system economies left because of obvious shortcomings to the economic system..... e.g. North Korea, Cuba.

    The list of reasons why socialism fails as an economic system are numerous:

    1. Little to no private property

    2. No incentive to create AKA ingenuity and innovation

    3. Inefficiency of a centralized government producing and distributing goods and services

    4. The state determines what is produced and how it's produced instead of consumers who actually consume the goods......

    ad infinitum

    What do we have today on the left????

    Well, there's few actual "socialists" left. MOST people with any kind of ability to think understands that socialism as en economic systems FAILS hardcore. There's SOME that will call for turning healthcare over to the government completely or nationalized oil, etc. but their stupidity and inability to study history is few and far between.

    What we have now is the modern day progressive or democratic socialist. They're more than happy to have capitalism produce wealth. They just think they're entitled to a larger piece of the pie, sometimes with the only caveat of being born..... In other words, they want capitalism to fuel their perpetual welfare state as they EXPECT the government to redistribute wealth accordingly because they "deserve" it for doing nothing.

    What they FAIL to realize is EVERY dollar spent on "welfare"(not general welfare) has to be taken directly from "producers".

    Take healthcare for example. The U.S had led on R&D in healthcare for decades. If we had a socialized healthcare system like the rest of the world, the entire world would likely be decades behind in medical diagnosis and treatment. Some nations are catching up on R&D but only because Americans put forth the initial R&D effort.

    In short: The left wants the benefits of capitalism and the benefits of socialism at the same time. They want their cake and eat it too. That's why I like to characterize them as blood sucking leeches.

    I have a moral issue against modern socialism too. The state has no moral justification to use force in order to take from one who earns and hand to another who didn't. That's called robbery under any other circumstances. A MORAL society respects the ability of others and their private property. If a government collects taxes, it SHOULD be used as a benefit to the entire society e.g. infrastructure, research, education.

    I'll leave you with a quote for those who "think" benevolence can be handed out by state force.

    Feel free to comment, critique, challenge etc. Of course it's a simplified version as I'm lazy. I'll elaborate my principles and ideals as they become challenged.
     
  2. Wizard From Oz

    Wizard From Oz Banned at Members Request

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    LOL and of course you are not going to offer any proof of this...............are you?
     
  3. Unifier

    Unifier New Member

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    Socialism 101 -

    Work hard = get punished

    Do nothing = get rewarded

    When you whittle it down to its essence, this is all it really is. Zealots like to dress it up in these big, silly, grandiose social justice terms, but nothing they ever say refutes the basic equation above.
     
  4. danielpalos

    danielpalos Banned

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    Socialism 101:

    Failure to plan is planning to fail regarding social contracts.
     
  5. Wizard From Oz

    Wizard From Oz Banned at Members Request

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    Is that aside from the fact you are completely wrong?
     
  6. Subdermal

    Subdermal Banned

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    No, he's not.

    Gee. This game is easy!
     
  7. undertheice

    undertheice Well-Known Member

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    are you going to come up with anything to refute these assertions or are you just going to continue this on-line version of sticking your tongue out and running to the other side of the schoolyard?
     
  8. danielpalos

    danielpalos Banned

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    Socialism 101:

    Failure to plan is planning to fail regarding social contracts.
     
  9. Wizard From Oz

    Wizard From Oz Banned at Members Request

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    Whats there to refute - The OP came up with a completely baseless claim, and I called him out on it. The second comment seems to be generated while laboring under the impression socialists never worked hard. A demonstrably incorrect assumption. But please feel free to prove me wrong

    - - - Updated - - -

    Yeah he is, being lazy in a socialist country would get you shot as quick as look at you. The problem with socialism is there is no reward for working smart, only working hard. Thats the real equation
     
  10. Burz

    Burz New Member

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    So mix it up, include small businesses and cooperatives, include meritocracy, foundation on law that the Soviet Union lacked, etc. Let's not be retarded here. The SU was one example of a state-run economy, which Cuba is already differing significantly from by including cooperatives.
     
  11. geofree

    geofree Active Member

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    Nationalizing the value of the oil which has not yet been harvested is a logical and efficient way to help fund the government and reduce the burden of taxation on the economy. The oil producers will receive the same rewards they receive today. The idle natural resource “owner” will no longer receive anything … but as the owner does not produce the oil, taxing him heavily cannot reduce the supply of oil. Taxing natural resources (land) to their full value is the only tax which cannot create scarcity ... because it cannot reduce the supply, the supply of land is fixed, regardless of the tax. You just do not understand enough economics to realize that taxing something which is fixed in supply is an ideal form of taxation.
     
  12. undertheice

    undertheice Well-Known Member

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    1. simple fact - a disproportionate percentage of the medical breakthroughs of the modern age have been developed and funded by the u.s. private sector. can you name a single socialist nation that has come close to the innovation in this capitalist country?

    2. that isn't at all what he said. the point is that socialism rewards failure to the same extent as it does success. this essentially punishes those who put out the effort, by failing to allow the proper rewards for their success.


    no, the real equation is that socialism does not reward working at all. rewards are reserved for the ruling class. only they have the power to take those rewards that any rational society would reserve for those who earn them. with all economic and political power invested in the state, it can end up no other way.
     
  13. Burz

    Burz New Member

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    If you were rational, you would be the ruling class.
     
  14. danielpalos

    danielpalos Banned

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    Socialism 101:

    Failure to plan is planning to fail regarding social contracts.

     
  15. Wizard From Oz

    Wizard From Oz Banned at Members Request

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    That is not what he said - He argued that a universal health care system retards medical developments. Well I hate to tell you but a country with universal healthcare developed a way to prevent Spina bifida, invented the HPV vaccine, and spray on skin which sped up the skin culture process by 75% and the bionic ear
     
  16. undertheice

    undertheice Well-Known Member

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    since not everyone can be a member of the ruling class, the rational man would never invest such power into any body and the compassionate man would divide these powers as much as possible.
     
  17. Jonsa

    Jonsa Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I don't know many democrats who think that the economy should be centrally managed. Regulated yes, managed, no.

    nor any democratic socialists that believe in economic egalitarianism. Collective social assistance to provide a minimum standard of living to those in need - yes. everyone having the same - no.

    nor anyone the demonizes those with more than others. Excessive exploitation without consequence (wall street bankers fer instance) = yes. hard working successful people - no.

    I think the vast majority of people on the left have no illusions as to the evils of communism and have absolutely no desire to emulate the failed experiments of the 20th century.

    People on the left comprehend that to maintain freedom and liberty within a society there must be both an individual responsiblity and a collective responsibility.

    Your premise "The left wants the benefits of capitalism and the benefits of socialism at the same time" is absolutely correct.

    For some peculiar reason you believe the two to be mutually exclusive, which is rather amusing since the American economy is a mixed economy itself, has been since the 30's and despite the evil inroads of socialism during that time became the richest nation in the human history. Fluke I guess.

    this notion that there is no moral justification to forcible take from those that have to provide for those that don't is LAUGHABLE. Considering that you do not appear to have any sense of collective responsiblity for fellow citizens in need, I find your "moral" argument to be nothing more than immoral display of greed and selfishness.

    Your taxes are paid to assist in the maintenance of the economic and social environment within which those that can do, and those that can't don't starve to death in the gutter. There is such a thing as social responsiblity, but with many on the right this notion of social responsibility is equated to giving to the undeserving.

    Maybe you can tell us all why children living in poverty are undeserving of the basic necessities of life?I've heard the anecdotal extrapolation argument about those on welfare are lazy and simply don't want to work, but the actual evidence is clear that the VAST majority of those who need social assistance programs actually do work - OMG!

    I absolutely agree with you that the application of tax revenues by the government should benefit the entire society.

    If you don't think that establishing a minimum standard of living for the impoverished, working poor, elderly and disabled is not of benefit to the entire society then, you are obviously NOT a student of history. If you don't think that ensuring all the children of the nation should be afford a minimum opportunity for success, then you have a pretty damn skewed perspective of what collective benefit is all about.
     
  18. Burz

    Burz New Member

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    Yes, that's called autocracy.
     
  19. undertheice

    undertheice Well-Known Member

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    a little bit of reading comprehension goes a long way. what was said was "The U.S had led on R&D in healthcare for decades. If we had a socialized healthcare system like the rest of the world, the entire world would likely be decades behind in medical diagnosis and treatment.", not that no advancement was made anywhere else or even that socialized medicine was incapable of any advancement. the statement that an incentive based system far outstrips the incentive-less socialist system still stands and is backed up by history.
     
  20. undertheice

    undertheice Well-Known Member

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    you are confused..... as usual.
     
  21. MeshugeMikey

    MeshugeMikey New Member

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    heres an actual quote from a fairly well known socialist of old....that might be interesting here


    [​IMG]
     
  22. banchie

    banchie New Member

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    Hmm, how does one work hard and get punished? Is that like working hard & not sharing in the profits, wages & benefits, because the do nothing stockholders who do nothing get rewarded?
     
  23. banchie

    banchie New Member

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    North Korea, Cuba? Is that all that is left of the socialist states? My question then, why are you discussing socialism?
     
  24. RedRepublic

    RedRepublic Banned at Members Request

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    State control is not socialism.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Source?
     
  25. Str8Edge

    Str8Edge New Member

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    It's common knowledge that one of the MAJOR shortfalls of socialism is no incentive for ingenuity and innovation. That doesn't mean it doesn't exist in socialist nations. What it means is who in the hell is going to INVEST in something with no possibility of profit????

    It's also common knowledge we've led the world in R&D medically, technologically and pharmaceutically. Why? Because profits drive research and development DUH.

    Progressives think profit is BAAAADDDDDDD. The chase for profit is behind most advances in technology and innovation DUH.
     

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