The real Islam

LoL : )))) who is FBI ??? maybe another terrorist organization ??? ))

 

Ok would you tell the authorities?

 

Chances are that you follow Islam because that was how you were raised. This is the case whether it be Hindoo's, Christians, or Muslims.

The question previously was whether or not you condone the Imam's that issue fatwa's ? Death for violating some human's interpretation of Gods will.

 

Technically it is a religion of peace. After you kill all dissenting voices things become pretty quiet and peaceful.

Oh right, nvm, actually then you just kill each other. Carry on.

 

You can say that about any religion on earth, to include atheism. The Big Bang and evolution, for instance, do not disprove the existence of God, but merely describe how He went about the business of creating us weird little apes.

 

I dont need fatwas to make a decision : )))

 

'A'isha (Allah be pleased with her) reported that Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) married her when she was seven years old, and he was taken to his house as a bride when she was nine, and her dolls were with her; and when he (the Holy Prophet) died she was eighteen years old.

That there is from some hadith, taken from some jewish muslim center. But Aisha doesn't really matter. There are many other things Muhammed did that would disqualify him from being the best role model. I mean seriously, if you could choose ANYONE that has EVER lived, you go with muhammed? Folly

The pagans, whom were otherwise acceptive of jews and christians just hated muslims for some reason and wanted to kill them? Is there any reason for why just islam was so despised and not the others? And no, I can't ever believe that he conquered the peninsula in self defense, that's ridicolous. Medina and mecka, maybe the hedjaz, but not all arabia.

You said Islam gives women more rights than any other religion. Samis might, and probably are, better. So?

I'm not talking about that is what I'm saying. I'm saying that the islamic world method of retaliating is quite unique.

The people who kill girls going to school in pakistan or whatever are doing that because of the west? Hmm, seems to me like either they're (*)(*)(*)(*)ing idiots without any sense of logic, or that you're unwilling to admit that there's something wierd about islamic societies.

 

The hadith from which this is derived also states that she had begun menstruation before the marriage was consummated.

It was apparently also a common practice for a couple to live together as married except for abstaining from sex until after her menstruation had begun. This is apparently discussed in the Qumran scrolls. This is how it came to be that Joseph's wife was a virgin so long after they were betrothed. Also, in the Epistle to the Romans, the Apostle Paul wrote :"If a man has a virgin, and her bloom is past, if they wish to marry, let them marry." Viewed against this, the Messenger's behavior was quite within wide-spread social norms of the times.

Not really. He was a leader in a time of war, and conducted that war efficiently and humanely (by the standards of his times.) Make the war as horrible as possible so that it is brought to a quick end, so that there are fewer innocents killed because they were just in the wrong place when a battle broke out.

Yes. Islam called for and end to the worship of the pagan gods and their human sacrifices. Islam also codified a woman's right to control her own finances and to own property and that sort of thing. Male privilege was actually decreased under Islam from the prior pagan norms.

All of Arabia had benefitted monetarily from the pagan pilgrims to Mecca.

It makes a big difference when a modern nation with world-wide trading contacts makes such a leap, compared to low-tech herders in an isolated part of the world.

No, the Pashtun do that sort of thing because they are only semi-civilized spear chuckers with a thin veneer of Islam over their barbarianism.

 

They're more like...well....
[video=youtube;gxP9v68fiEs]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gxP9v68fiEs[/video]

 

LoL : )))) Fatwas just can be offered as ideas together logical explanations : ))) Today many fatwas are putting forward by Saudi so-called clerics and many of them are bull(*)(*)(*)(*) . Islam teach us to use our minds differently than some muslims does today : )))

 

[9.29] Fight those who do not believe in Allah, nor in the latter day, nor do they prohibit what Allah and His Apostle have prohibited, nor follow the religion of truth, out of those who have been given the Book, until they pay the tax in acknowledgment of superiority and they are in a state of subjection.

 

You have 25.000 post but still you dont know how to read a book : )))) Read the surah 9 alltogether : )))

 

Glad you didn't take offense. You make a good point about the use of the Muslim mind. I've been doing some reading on Islam to make sense of it and have become intrigued by what I've read. I do understand there are four schools of thought among Sunnis alone. The Shiia are different with a complicated history but you sound like a Sunni so my comments will relate to that. My research hints the change of the Muslim world from a progressive to reactionary is tied to events in about the 10th-11th centuries. The rise of the influence of the Ash'ari school and the reduction of the influence of the Mu'tazili which was more committed to reason and logic. The concept of Ijtihad (independent reasoning) came to be regarded as almost 'sinful' while taqlid (the established legal precedents and traditions) became the dominant means for finding truth. This was promoted by tyrants who wanted to keep their subjects from thinking for themselves.

Your reference to 'Saudi so-called clerics' and their 'bull(*)(*)(*)(*)' fatwas makes me think you are one of the small group of progressives who want to reconcile Islam to the changes in the modern world by re-opening the gates of ijtihad, in order to accommodate the religion with modern society. From what I've read progressive Muslims want to “apply contemporary intellectual methods to the task of reforming Islam”. Of course the simplistic western thinking only understands ijtihad (jihaad) from the violent perspective. So how goes the struggle? I understand its still very difficult to change 1000 years of reactionary thought in the middle east. peace.

 

RonaldO may not like it. but moderate Muslims can only dodge the issue so long. They can side with the extremist Al-Qaeda types and ultimately both make themselves miserable and invite massive retaliation on themselves (glowing clouds of radioactive gas spring to mind, and not necessarily ones created by the USA) or they can declare their own extremists not proper Muslims and crush them themselves. All sitting on the fence does is gradually (*)(*)(*)(*) off the West and encourage the extremists, making the first result more likely.

Those are the facts, Ronaldo. If the USA and the West stopped all actions against all Muslims of any sort, do you really think the extremists would perceive this as having achieved all their goals? And would moderate Muslims see this as being nice to Muslims or as proving the extremists had forced this behavior and therefore the extremist agenda was the correct way to go for Islam?

The appeaser never prospers in the long run, and the more he appeases the worse the final reckoning tends to be. If the British and French had been firm with Hittler early in his Chancellorship (the acquiesence to the re-militarization of the Rhineland comes to mind), an awful lot of death and destruction might have been averted.

 

I have. All of the Koran. Did you have a point you wanted to make? Revealing I accurately quote an exerpt from the koran and this leads you to question whether I can read. No doubt you think I need to read more to see that the verse doesnt mean what it says.

 

2 Timothy 2:23-25
Have nothing to do with foolish, ignorant controversies; you know that they breed quarrels. And the Lord's servant must not be quarrelsome but kind to everyone, able to teach, patiently enduring evil, correcting his opponents with gentleness. God may perhaps grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth,
1 Timothy 6:4
He is puffed up with conceit and understands nothing. He has an unhealthy craving for controversy and for quarrels about words, which produce envy, dissension, slander, evil suspicions,

Go back to your silly little imperialist war games. As a perveyor of historical, political, or religious wisdom you suck.
[video=youtube;ww3MDDyBoZo]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ww3MDDyBoZo[/video]

 

you know the best way to destroy something or stop the progression of it is to attack from the inside . Break into pieces and swallow . This is what islam live in today . Understanding of different ways of thinking are supporting by enemies of islam and being imposed that they needed to destroy each other . Noone can fool a muslims those who use their mind . Actually I'm opposed to people who identify themselves in a sect and I dont want to identify myself as a sunni muslim but I'm more closer to sunni sect as a way of thinking . Wahhabism is also a different way of thinking in sunni sect but wahhabism limits to the use of the mind and extremism starts here . See here how islam is falling apart . Today you country so enemies of islam support wahhabism , do you know why , because they see other sects as enemies to be destroyed . Many of muslim countries have low level of education and because of ignorant people . This is the most dangerous thing , ignorance . I prefer an intelligent enemy instead of an ignorant ally . You can push these people the way you want with the help of various elements of motivation . This is what is being done on Islam . This very long thread , everything takes a long time to talk individually.

Islam always renews itself , just ignorant people cant keep up with Islam .

: ))))

 

But what if Islam is renewing itself in the wrong way? Nazi Germany was an experiment in renewing the direction of the German peoples and that experiment didn't work out too well. The Spanish Inquisition was an experiment in enforcing Catholicism in the Spanish Empire and that didn't work out too well.

The Crusades were an experiment in renewing Christianity by focussing on an external enemy and killing millions of them - hang on, change that to Islam and that's starting to sound very familiar. And how did that end up in a time when the Muslims had no nukes available to smite the Crusaders?

 

All nations get behind their own totalitarian murderous cults. Still happens today.
Of course, they don't advertise themselves as such, but ultimately... those who rule are all the same and have their own agenda.

 

"The concept of Ijtihad (independent reasoning) came to be regarded as almost 'sinful' while taqlid (the established legal precedents and traditions) became the dominant means for finding truth. This was promoted by tyrants who wanted to keep their subjects from thinking for themselves. "

It was promoted by the Sunni schools of thought. Embraced by tyrants in power who wanted to maintain the status quo

 

Thank you for the discussion. I know America and the British want to be allies with the Saudi wahhabis because they want to keep people in the Muslim world ignorant and not free. That way they can take cheap oil and only have to deal with the rich leaders, not the average Muslim who might like to keep oil for their own benefit or raise the price to get money for schools, roads, irrigation, factories, and houses. I send e-mails to my leaders in congress, and even give election money to them, but it takes a lot of angry citizens to make our leaders listen to us. Mostly they listen to rich corporations who fund their re-election campaigns. Rich and powerful want to keep things the way they are. We hear a lot of lies about Muslims on TV and radio, but if we try we can find truth as well. But like you say it takes thinking. Even in America certain corrupt leaders in Congress and State Governments want the people to become more ignorant, poor, and unfree, destroying our school systems, neglecting to rebuild our old roads, bridges, cities, damaging our efforts to provide health care to our own people. As you say it is easier to push people the way you want with the help of various elements of motivation if they are ignorant. We here in America have our own 'Ijtihad' to go through. Sometimes I think we're winning and sometimes I think not. Some Americans are starting to see the evil of sending our people off to the middle east with guns and bringing them back in boxes. So much useless waste and death. But as you can see on this forum there are many who filled with hate and fear are still blind to the truth. Good luck on your Ijtihad. We're doing our best to win ours.

 

The old man turned off the radio Said,
"Where did all of the old songs go
Kids sure play funny music these days
They play it in the strangest ways"
Said, "It looks to me like they've all gone wild
It was peaceful back when I was a child
Well, man, could it be that the girls and boys
Are trying to be heard above your noise?"
And the lonely voice of youth cries "What is truth?"
A little boy of three sittin' on the floor
Looks up and says, "Daddy, what is war?"
"Son, that's when people fight and die"
The little boy of three says, "Daddy, why?"
A young man of seventeen in Sunday school
Being taught the golden rule
And by the time another year has gone around
It may be his turn to lay his life down
Can you blame the voice of youth for asking "What is truth?"
A young man sittin' on the witness stand
The man with the book says, "Raise your hand
Repeat after me, I solemnly swear"
The man looked down at his long hair
And although the young man solemnly swore
Nobody seems to hear anymore
And it didn't really matter if the truth was there
It was the cut of his clothes and the length of his hair
And the lonely voice of youth cries "What is truth?"
The young girl dancing to the latest beat
Has found new ways to move her feet
The young man speaking in the city square
Is trying to tell somebody that he cares
Yeah, the ones that you're calling wild
Are gonna be the leaders in a little while
This old world's wakin' to a new born day
And I solemnly swear that it'll be their way
You better help the voice of youth find "What is truth"
And the lonely voice of youth cries "What is truth?"

JOHNNY CASH - WHAT IS TRUTH

 

The question was not about whether or not you personally need fatwa's. What I was asking is if you condone (agree with) the practise ? and do you think that these Imam's speak for God ?

 

Does the POPE?
Or does Bishops, or the preists, or the pastors, or maybe that guy on the street corner?
[video=youtube;CJ0INnJirdU]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CJ0INnJirdU[/video]

 

Some girls can menstruate while they're around nine years old, it says little. I'm not defending anything that's said in the bible if that's what you're saying, if there's similar cases there it's the same. It might have fine by the customs of the time but that's not what I'm saying, I'm saying that by our modern standards it would be pedophilia. He said muhammed would be the perfect role model of all time, isn't it relevant to judge him by our standards then?

Again, there was slavery and women being carried off as war booty. The man leading these wars would hardly qualify for a universal role model.

Human sacrifices? I didn't find a good article abour arab paganism, but can you link to any?

Perhaps, but that's not what I'm talking about though.

Indeed it does, but I just pointed out that his claim was wrong.

You impress me. I though that the only ones you'd call primitive spear chuckers were europeans, seems your not as biased as I thought. 'grats. But yes, it could be that the pashtun culture rather than islam is to blame. But then, these things happen everywhere in the islamic world. In turkey for example, a catholic priest was dragged out of his church and beheaded. And turkey is, or was, the most westernised country.