Was killing Baghdadi a betrayal ?

When does Trump not lie?

 

They are (at least some). I actually saw one leftist say we shouldn't "celebrate" the poor guy's death.
]

Who cares? Who cares if he was screaming, crying or hooting with joy? He's dead and we're glad. You are really desperate to come up with SOMETHING wrong with this.

 

Why are you still on some mindless demonization rant against the left ? That is not going to help your argument - nor change reality.

Your list only includes publicly traded entities - not private companies nor accumulated wealth - nor are some of the families in the R/R consortium American - nor is R/R this the only group of big money interests - they are just one example.

You seem to thinking about some cabal or star chamber - it doesn't work like that.

Only someone completely out of the loop does not realize that big money influence in Washington is rampant. Politicians and Journalists bemoan this fact on a regular basis.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_Street_Corporation

1) explain the difference between "Assets under management" and "under custody and administration"

The owners of the 31.62 Trillion are not included in your list as these are private holdings.

 

In this case - Assad was never the greater of two evils once the armed insurgency began in Syria - which is what makes this situation interesting.

While Assad is no cherub (and that is putting it lightly) - he is not even close to being the greatest evil among ME nations.

Syria is not a Strict Sharia Totalitarian nightmare - like our Saudi friends. Syria is one of the most free Muslim nations on the planet.

Syria is one of the few "Secular" Muslim Nations. No death penalty for Adultery, Apostasy, gays. Alcohol is permitted - there is drinking and dancing in bars - western style - unlike El Saud.

Women do not need permission from a man to be educated or be escorted by a male relative when they venture out - like in El Saud.
Women wear skits and proper bathing suits and drive cars.

There are Christian Churches in Syria and relative religious freedom. Assad has Christian Generals in his army.

The Radical Islamist's hate this - they hate secularism. The western infidel is one thing but "Secularism" in a Muslim ME nation is a cancer from within.

The protest movement in Syria started out as moderate - the people asking for change. This movement was quickly taken over by the Radical Islamist's Jihadists who then started raising havoc.

The article below describes the situation in Syria prior to armed insurgency - May 2011.

Christians Under Attack From Anti-Government Protesters in Syria

https://www.christianpost.com/news/...om-anti-government-protestors-in-syria-50104/

The people did not like Assad much - but - they Hate the radical Islamist's far more - which is why the people of Syria who want to keep their freedoms fight for Assad.

The radical Islamist's want Islamic Law in Syria - Totalitarian Strict Sharia in all its glory.

We always here "Assad is a bad guy" - which is true. What we don't here is "what do the people of Syria want" ?

The two sides in the conflict in Syria are:

1) people of Syria fighting to maintain their freedoms (fighting for Assad)
2) Radical Islamist Jihadists who want to take those freedoms away.
3) people caught in the middle.

Senator Richard Black - who - like Gabbard went to Syria to assess the situation had this to say.

https://www.globalresearch.ca/virgi...ad-for-saving-the-lives-of-christians/5384338

The above is the side that Obama Supported (and a large coalition of other nations -Saudi Arabia, Qatar, Turkey, Britain, Israel, Eastern European nations .. and so on)

Virginia Senator Thanks Syrian President Bashar Al Assad for Saving the Lives of Christians
Open Letter of U.S. Senator Richard H. Black to President Bashar al-Assad Acknowledges US Support to Terrorists

"My personal thanks to the Syrian Arab Army and Air Force for protecting all patriotic Syrians, including religious minorities, raped, tortured, kidnapped and beheaded at the hands of the foreign jihadists”…

I cannot explain how Americans, who suffered so grievously at the hands of al-Qaeda, were tricked into supporting the jihadists.

But I do know that many U.S. officials disagree with equipping and training the terrorists who penetrate your borders from the Kingdom of Jordan and through Turkey. Senator Richard H. Black of Virginia, 13th District

 

At the time few knew they were 'human garbage' and if those few did speak up they'd be called 'Racist' or 'Islamophobic'. All we have now is hindsight.

 

But there were witnesses.

 

At what time does "At the Time" refer to ? We supported the Radical Islamist Jihadists for roughly 5 years.

The Anti Assad forces were full on Radical Islamist Jihadists nut jobs - right from the get go. The protest movement - which started out as moderate - was quickly taken over by the radical Islamist's - and it was not like this was some big secret.

This was the situation in May 2011 - just prior to the start of the war.

Christians Under Attack From Anti-Government Protesters in Syria

https://www.christianpost.com/news/...om-anti-government-protestors-in-syria-50104/

Are you saying that out intelligence agencies - with a budget of 80 Billion/year - more than the entire Federal spend of Mexico - a nation that is 11th in the world in terms of purchasing power - did not know this ?

Is this the point in time you are referring to ? - Lets give your "few knew" claim the benefit of the doubt. In the beginning of the war there were a bunch of defectors from Assad's army. These "may" have been moderates - or they may have been Islamist's. It is rather hard to believe that these soldiers were not aware that the vast majority of the insurgency was Islamist - with the goal of turning Syria into a Strict Sharia Totalitarian nightmare - but - lets give the benefit of the doubt.

These folks represented a very small number - within a radical Islamist Jihad - a Holy War. Any and all significant traces of "moderates" was gone within the first year of the war .. according to our own intelligence agencies - Defense Intelligence Agency in 2012.

http://www.judicialwatch.org/wp-con...12-DOD-Release-2015-04-10-final-version11.pdf

So we knew in 2012 that the insurgency was dominated by radical Islamist extremists - we knew that foreign fighters from all over the world were pouring into Syria to take part in the Holy Jihad and we knew that it was a Holy Jihad.

In the following year there were hundreds of reports and articles - including the NY-Times and numerous other western publications - reporting on the horrors of the radical Islamist Jihadists - (and they were putting out video's of these atrocities online) and that there were no moderate forces of any significance.

During this time (the first two years of the war 2012 and 2013)) - we were "covertly" arming these Jihadists. During this time - the Jihadists took over most of Syria. Set up Sharia Courts in all cities under their control - were engaging in dark age persecution of Christians and other minorities - and the most heinous atrocities - all of which was widely reported.

So where are you coming up with this "few knew" idea ? By the beginning of 2013 - everyone who took the time to look into the conflict in any detail knew - it was widely reported, even in Western sources - and of course - our intelligence community knew - very well - what was going on.

We continued to arm and support the Jihadists for 4 more years - in full knowledge of what we were supporting.

It wasn't until 2014 that the "Moderate Rebel Lie" became a regular part of the Establishment narrative - long after Syria had been turned into a giant Islamic State - sans Damascus. This is when much of the Western Media (the NY-Times in particular) forgot all of its previous reporting and started promoting the Establishment false narrative.

This lie was promoted specifically so that the Obama admin could continue to arm the Radical Islamist Jihadists and to cover up the fact that this is exactly what we were doing. It was a Propaganda effort.

 

Assad began shooting protestors in March 2011 and 10,000 Sunni conscripts left the military. The FSA was non sectarian for nearly 2 years, but in those first years Assad dropped 4,000 barrel bombs on Syrian civilians.

 

Prove your claim - there are many accusations leveled against Assad that are unfounded and/or propaganda ... and some that are not.

Knowing your track record - odds of your story being in the latter category are low.

 

I don't like to complicate things too much. It's like how some make financial derivatives
so complicated as to suggest a form of corruption. So too with political ideas - the more
complex the greater the smell of falsehood.
I don't see Western societies as being pure as driven snow - just better than any of the
alternatives.
You see ISIS cutting the throats of its victims? Compare that the treatment of inmates
at Guantanamo.
What makes you think the story of Abraham is a myth? The bible has the claim that
this account is history - unlike the story of Zeus or the Rainbow Serpent.

 

Nice gesture but Assad didn't care what religion they were when he started dropping barrel bombs on them.

Syrian Christians were terrified of the Assad regime for 50 years.

 

He did care what religion they were - he wanted to kill the Radical Islamist Jihadists that your beloved El Saud armed with tens of thousands of tons of sophisticated military equipment.

It is true that during the protest movement Assad's hand was heavy at times (still waiting for you to prove your claim with respect to some action you mentioned during the protest movement - your comment here is backtracking into oblivion)

None of this changes the fact that the proxy army that Assad was fighting was much much worse .. and the people of Syria were far more afraid of the Radical Islamist Proxy army than they were Assad - which is why they fought for Assad.

You seem obsessed with Assad - my concern is for the people of Syria - the ones who are not Radical Extremists and do not want them to take over Syria and turn it into a Saudi Inspired Strict Sharia Totalitarian Nightmare.

 

For now, let me just share with you my conclusions. That itself makes for a long enough message. Anything more will be too complicated for a message here.

All the stories you allude to, regardless of the tradition they come from, reflect the myths from the cultural traditions in that society. Those myths, in turn, were derived from a combination of factors, including:

-- the need of the ruling elite to legitimize power and maintain order among those being ruled ("Quest for Order")
-- the desire of the governed to have their interests taken into account by the ruling elite, taking from the earliest stages in human development various forms of 'ethical protests' ("Quest for Justice")
- human societies quest to discover the 'truth' about events, natural phenomenon, and the meaning and purpose of life ("Quest for Truth").

Aspects of the first two are even present in the animal kingdom, in behavior of animals who pack together even before the development of rational thought and verbal discourse in the higher evolutionary form in the animal kingdom known as "humans". Those are each important in allowing for the 'pack' to operate successfully. The last one ("Quest for Truth"), however, is unique to humans. It reflects greater human intelligence compared to lower evolutionary forms.

Some of those myths stretch back to the 'midst of time' to before recorded history, retold from one generation to the next, and would go through their own 'evolutionary processes' as they would be developed. A few arose from combining these myths in more historical times with ethical protests by 'historical figures' after the advent of writing. The ones that arose in this manner, with a historical figure acting as 'prophet', with his 'teachings' recorded in scripture, to some extent hindered the evolutionary processes of adjusting and reforming these myths. These ethical protests which tried to arrest the "Quest for Truth" and "Quest for Justice" basically worked against the forces of evolution (not only human evolution, but also societal evolution).

There is one constant in the basic design of things and that is change. Societies change and evolve based on a combination of factors, some of them arising from the Marxian 'dialectical materialism", others through a more Hegelian dialectical form of the clash between different ideas and ideologies. The most retarded form of ideology is those which try to arrest those changes, and the Quest for the Truth, in conceptions handed down in ancient times.

In the West, the development of rational discourse following the ancient Greeks, the European renaissance, and then the rise of "Enlightenment", were important developments in freeing the "Quest for Truth" from ancient dogmas represented by scripture. "Aristotelian Logic", Descartes' critical thinking on epistemology ("I think therefore I am"), and the modern day Popperian 'falsification principle' as the cornerstone of the scientific method, helped to free the "Quest for Truth" from any ideology that pretended to hand such truth to us.

In the West, the development of various ideologies under various labels, from the natural law school, or later neo-Kantian conceptions of it (in its most developed recent form, in the "Theory of Justice" by Rawls), or in positivist schools which followed Hume's postulate ("You can't derive an ought from an is"), in utilitarian conceptions or in analytical marriages between them in works such as Hart's "Concept of Law", were all important to liberate the Quest for Justice and the Quest for Order from ancient dogmas. The Marxian ideology of dialectical materialism, its critique of capitalism, and certain other aspects of Marxian thought, were also important in illuminating the Quest for Order (although any dogmatic or simplification of that ideology itself becomes part of the problem and not a solution) and Quest for Justice, with the development of representative democracy and the greater inclusiveness of such forms of government, all important stepping stones in this process.

The West, however, has reached the point where its ideological framework has led to one of the following (1) rampant individualism and selfishness (important part of the natural instincts in human evolution but which can be disruptive of it in the imbalance they create) taking various forms including in what is ultimately nihilism; (2) trying to infuse the Quest for Justice with humanistic ideologies without however being able to overcome Hume's "you can't derive an ought from an is" (in other words, without being able to explain why the powerful should necessarily bow to any "Theory of Justice"); and/or (3) a rejection of nihilism and rampant individualism and selfishness by doing what you do, which is attaching yourself to ancient dogmas which produce rather horrific results for the Quest for Truth and Quest for Justice and the Quest for Order.

In the Islamic world, on the other hand, the Quest for Truth and Quest for Justice was retarded in Sunni tradition by an emphasis on scripture and the interpretations of it by the "prophet's companions". And when those two don't work properly, the Quest for Order will fail too. The Shia tradition in Iran (Jaffari Usuli school of jurisprudence) does have sufficient openings for the Quest for Truth and the Quest for Justice to evolve and be liberated from dogma, but there is too much dogma in even that tradition that needs to be reformed.

The best answer to me comes from a marriage of Iranian and enlightened Western thought. Iranian thought on the issue is too alien for you for me to be able to even sketch here, but the ultimate philosophical view that would emerge from it would be as follows:

The "divine will' is for the evolutionary processes to lead us to the Truth (the latter, the expression of the true divine element in the order of things). The Quest for Truth is the most developed evolutionary instinct as represented in humans. Reason and rational thought, although incapable of telling us the "Truth", are important guides to help us in that evolutionary process by cutting helping cut down 'falsehood'. The Quest for Justice and Quest for Order are also general guides in helping us choose the forces of "Good" against the forces of "Evil", as long as they don't retard or corrupt the "Quest for Truth". The Quest for Truth, Quest for Justice and the Quest for Order are best combined by having a system of government which combines representative democracy with a properly trained class of scholars acting as modern day "Philosopher kings". The system itself devised in such way to prevent the Quest for Truth to be overtaken by any dogma in the otherwise natural evolutionary instincts represented in the Quest for Order and Quest for Justice.

 

A lot of ignorance out there in the Muslim world if they think terrorists should not b hunted down and killed.

 

Muslims have been fighting terrorists for 20 years because Muslim terrorists mostly kill Muslims. Go to bed.

 

Not tonight, Josephine.. You have proven to me that you have NEVER read any of the evidence I have linked over the years.

 

Muslims killing Muslims. Yes, it's well known. It's been going on for centuries but now that practice has spread to the democracies. If Muslims cant solve the problem within Islam then others must.

 

A book claiming that the some event in that book is history is not proof that the event actually happened.

The Bible claims that there was a flood that covered the entire earth around 2200-2400 - and we know this didn't happen.

The God of Abraham was El - Chief God of the Sumerian/near east pantheon - according to modern Biblical Scholarship. That the there was some fellow who worshiped El was not unique back in the day.

The Israelite God YHWH started out as war God and eventually the Characteristics of both El and Baal were fused into the character of YHWH. For example - YHWH at one point had a consort - Asherah - El's consort. This was common back in those days.

The Israelite's were not strict monotheists .. they were to worship only one God - but they believe in the existence of others ... a "divine Pantheon"

 

Actually for most of its history the ME for the past 600 years has been sleepy and apolitical.

I am speaking of Muslims aggressively fighting terrorists for the past 25 years.

 

I have read much of your "evidence" . Often you post stuff that refutes your own claims.

Is the reason you refuse to back up your claim about Assad killing protesters in May 2011 is because you can not prove your claim. I think so.

 

Start here..

Understanding Syria: From Pre-Civil War to Post-Assad ...
https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2013/12/understanding-syria-from-pre...
Dec 10, 2013 · Understanding Syria: From Pre-Civil War to Post-Assad. How drought, foreign meddling, and long-festering religious tensions creat

 

Assad 'dropped 13,000 barrel bombs on Syria in 2016 ...

Jan 11, 2017 · Assad 'dropped 13,000 barrel bombs on Syria in 2016', watchdog claims New NGO data says the Syrian government used the illegal munitions thousands of times last year, with 1,400 attacks …

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...-bombs-rebels-aleppo-douma-2016-a7521656.html

 

Syrian troops shoot dead protesters in day of turmoil ...

Apr 22, 2011 · Syrian troops shoot dead protesters in day of turmoil. Syria endured its bloodiest day yet of the Arab Spring as protests against President Bashar al-Assad brought turmoil to dozens of towns and cities across the country and security forces reportedly gunned down dozens of people. Despite a string of government concessions earlier in the week,...


https://www.theguardian.com/world/2011/apr/22/syria-protests-forces-shoot

 

Timeline of the Syrian Civil War (January–April 2011 ...

Protests began in Syria as early as 26 January 2011, and erupted on 15 March 2011 with a "Day of Rage" protest generally considered to mark the start of a nationwide uprising. The Syrian government's reaction to the protests became violent on 16 March, and deadly on 18 March, when four unarmed protesters and seven police were killed in Daraa.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_the_Syrian_Civil_War_(January–April_2011)

 

Yes, during this period they ignored the outside world and the outside world largely ignored them. However Islam wasn't created by being sleepy and apolitical, nor did it spread that way.

Well they haven't had much success and Islamic terrorism has been going on much longer than 25 years,