Which Vision of America Will Win Out?

What trillions on interest?

It doesn't. The Fed does hold about $1 trillion the Govt debt.

It doesn't. The Govt does pay interest on the debt the Fed holds, but the Fed remits most of it back to the Treasury.

How on earth could you possibly, in any reasonable interpretation, conclude that from anything I have ever written?

 

Thank you Dr. Frodo; we can always count on you to put things into the proper perspective with your immense intelligence and intellectual prowess.

Carry on.

 

WHO DOES THE GOVERNMENT OWE MONEY TO? Maybe 1 trillion is foreign nations, but we are 13? trillion in debt. Please explain who we OWE this to? Is it the "force" and the FED is made up of "Jedi's" not to be blamed?

 

Thank you Dr. Frodo; we can always count on you to put things into the proper perspective with your immense intelligence and intellectual prowess.

Carry on.

Conservative values include:

placing ideas and principles above personal desire, weaknesses, fears and regrets

a never-ending quest for the truth, despite obstacles based on emotion and personal experience, and spreading such truths for the benefit of all

recognizing and utilizing the benefits of competition and hard work

emphasizing charity, with its unexpected benefits, rather than compulsory tax-and-spend programs

teaching self-help rather than dependence on government and others
a devotion to the principle of justice

supporting self-defense

recognizing the media for its bias, bullying, deception.

frugality and efficiency

rejecting the deification of government officials

giving those in authority due respect, but not to the point of accepting orders or assertions that are contrary to logic or morality

downplaying significance of wealth, disparities in wealth, and materialism in general

emphasizing self-reliance and being able to keep the fruits of one's labor

not complaining, and instead taking practical action to improve one's situation

emphasizing self-restraint against hurtful activities

emphasizing humility and open-mindedness instead of arrogant certainty about one's own views

recognizing the power of the free market

understanding that a rising tide lifts all boats, e.g. tax cuts benefit all.

self-control as opposed to a self-indulgent search for instant gratification of desires.

 

Of the $14.3 trillion debt,

$4.5 trillion is owed to foreign governments:

http://www.treasury.gov/resource-center/data-chart-center/tic/Documents/mfh.txt

$4.6 trillion is owed to "intragovernmental holdings" like the SS trust fund, USPS and other Govt pensions and trusts:

http://www.treasurydirect.gov/NP/BPDLogin?application=np

$1.6 trillion is owed to the Fed:

http://www.federalreserve.gov/releases/h41/current/h41.htm#h41tab1

and the balance ($3.6 trillion) is owed to private individuals and entities.

 

I have posted 3 times so far the list of 13 nations, almost all European, that have a higher standard of living than the USA. Just because YOU claim the USA has a higher standard of living doesn't make it so.

Also why brag about your six figure income? Who are you trying to impress? I'm not impressed. Does that gain you some sort of forum credibility here?

 

Bond holders and the like, but now the largest creditor is the Federal Reserve.

Strange as it seems, the US could abolish the Fed, and assume their assets/liabilities. So, in a strange, lawyer contrived way, we actually do owe ourselves the interest.

 

This is not even close to accurate. See my prior post.

Where did you get this notion? I wonder where people get this kind of misinformation.

Someone asked why I seem to defend the Fed, it's not that I particularly have any love for the institution, but it is just so often we see completely erroneous notions expressed like the Fed is a private bank or that it is the largest creditor.

Someone or many people are spreading a lot of disinformation out there.

 

This is one area we are in agreement with and I am uncertain why anyone would think that the alternative; politicians managing the money supply, would be a better idea.

 

Well, here's a list...

Now factor in QE1 & QE2 - A little over $2 Trillion, as I recollect.

Now you tell me who the biggest creditor is.

 

A higher standard as determined by Liberal intellectuals. However, if you judge it by REALITY, I assure you there is nothing that makes European standards better than American; unless of course higher taxes, less choice, long waits for medical care, higher costs and apartment living are the higher standards being judged.

It wasn’t ”bragging", it was a statement of FACT as to why I am better off WITHOUT dependence on the Nanny State.

I see that you not only have a propensity for avoiding the truth and facts, but also not recognizing the OBVIOUS.

One thing I am certain of, your ability to achieve such a figure in your lifetime is slim unless you decide to become a corrupt politician; then your chances do increase. In America, you can achieve this without an education; just the will and desire to work hard and produce a good or service people need or want.

 

Alright -- my bad. I misread your post as implying the Fed holds most of the Govt debt, and not that it was the single largest creditor.

But that still is not technically correct. The SS trust fund is the single largest creditor, holding around $3 trillion in US Govt debt, I believe.

The Fed holds $1.6 trillion in US Govt debt, about 11% of the total.

 

Oh so you are certain my income is less than yours? And by default that make me less credible?.....LOL

You are quite the American.....no German in you that's for sure.. You obviously measure your self worth by your income.

 

Bear in mind that Federal Reserve Notes are evidences of debt, and that everything bought/sold with them represents a 1st lien on all the assets of the Federal Reserve Banks and on the collateral specifically held against them.

In essence, because they are legal tender, Federal Reserve notes are "backed" by all the goods and services in the economy.

Now, if FRN's are evidences of debt, and are secured by all the goods and services in the economy, then it follows that the Federal Reserve owns virtually everything.

And for that we get to pay for the privilege by paying income taxes on a mountain of debt.

There's only one way out. Abolish the Fed, assume its assets/liabilities, and repay what debts we can with real money, then repudiate the rest.

 

Nonesense. Go down and try to execute on your "lien".

What does that mean?

Your statement starts with a faulty premise and ends with an illogical (and erroneous) conclusion.

We have a mountain of debt because we are not paying sufficient income taxes for what the Govt spends. It has nothing to do with the Fed.

We could instead elect responsible representative who raise taxes and cut spending to balance the budget and pay down the debt. That would be a much more sound solution.

 

Seems like we 'll probably continue to have both.

 

Not my lien, the Fed's.

Ask the Treasury http://www.treasury.gov/resource-center/faqs/Currency/Pages/legal-tender.aspx

Again, take it up with Treasury.

Yes, but how would the debt ever be repaid with FRN's? You can't pay debt with debt. It doesn't work that way.

 

Don't forget the slaughter of our native brothers. Remember America had a national bank in it's early days as well.

 

In the immortal words of the great Thomas Jefferson which are so appropriate for this moment in American history, not to mention incredibly moving:




"And to preserve their (our) independence, we must not let our rulers load us with perpetual debt. We must make our election between economy and liberty, or profusion and servitude. If we run into such debts, as that we must be taxed in our meat and in our drink, in our necessaries and our comforts, in our labors and our amusements, for our callings and our creeds, as the people of England are, our people, like them, must come to labor sixteen hours in the twenty-four, give the earnings of fifteen of these to the government for their debts and daily expenses; and the sixteenth being insufficient to afford us bread, we must live, as they now do, on oatmeal and potatoes; have no time to think, no means of calling the mismanagers to account; but be glad to obtain subsistence by hiring ourselves to rivet their chains on the necks of our fellow-sufferers."​

 

If only the liberal-Left understood the wisdom of the Revolutionary Liberal-Right in 1776.

 

Government does not force you to go into debt, society does. Personal freedoms exist in both a social democracy and in any form of limited government. So that is out.

Authoritaranism is neither limited government or a social democracy, technically, so that is out.

The only thing you are arguing is your idea of what limited government is and what is and is not in the Constitution. But that has always been the $64 trillion question since Marbury v Madison.

 

And that is exactly what they did and the rest is history.

 

Please. Government debt is our debt. The government makes money from taxes, not from business. We are all forced into debt from the time we are born in modern America.

 

a 1959 kinda America .

 

It seems the debtors are changing their minds about that idea.