In your frustration at not being able to control women you are now getting quite silly. Driving a car is dangerous and some people CHOOSE not to, that's their right. Your " next time someone you know is pregnant and their water breaks, just tell them to walk to the nearest ER. Hey, maybe she'll spontaneously abort right there on the sidewalk"" shows your ignorance of pregnancy and your flailing around in illogical drama shows you know you have no case. Now , you claim "lefties" brainwash women into having abortions ...why don't you show some solid proof of that???? Are there secret training camps? WHERE does this brainwashing take place? Where are these women held captive while they are brainwashed?? JUST for once BACK UP something you claim... AND, you forgot to address: ""Why do you insist women are so stupid that they can be brainwashed to do something women have been doing for centuries, that does not make sense. Liberals did NOT invent abortion and have NO reason to push it at anyone. Why would they? It's the Anti-Choicers who are the control freaks. ""
You continue to make statements that just aren't true. I never said it wasn't. You continue to obfuscate. So...You would encourage a woman who's water broke to walk to a hospital? Figures.... Look right here on the Forum where lefties claim pregnancy and childbirth are 'more dangerous' than abortion based on cooked stats. In your mind maybe.... I never mentioned a place or that women were held captive... I did, you just can't comprehend. I don't HAVE to address such nonsense. All you want to do is argue and obfuscate. I would say that you people WANT more abortions and for children to be sexualized at early ages. Especially young girls so that you can further a pro-abortion political agenda and maybe have greater sexual control over young boys and girls.
""""I would say that you people WANT more abortions and for children to be sexualized at early ages""""" Why would I want more abortions? I don't. And I do not speak for "you people" whoever that is. WHERE in the subject of abortion would you get ""for children to sexualized at early ages"" ????? There is no "pro-abortion " political agenda.....and as to control issues it's the Anti-Choicers who wish to control women , their sex lives, and their pregnancies, their medical decisions....
So says the king of Obfuscation who refuses to clarify terminology while feigning disingenuous ignorance. Still waiting for your clarification from a previous post. Don't blame me for your lack of clarity or ability to explain what you mean. What do you mean by " a human life" Do you mean "the life of a human" or are you referring to development of life that is human ?
Who's facts? Most of these so called facts are opinion, masquerading as facts. A society cannot be a GOOD society and condole the murder of the unborn. Even an atheist like Hitchens saw the logic of it. But he was an atheist that valued human life, which is a shortcoming of many atheists. The first thing one does when wanting to devalue human life, is to say its not really a human life. First you dehumanize, and that is the oldest ploy in the world, used countless times to TRY to logically justify murder. My kind of human are much safer to be around than your kind. I don't draw arbitrary lines when it comes to murder, but those that feel a need to justify it, always do. I will never run away from logic, reason, rationality. Yet I will not accept those that insist on creating their own logic, that want to draw arbitrary lines, in order to devalue human life. I think even the village idiot knows the unborn is a human life. At least the one we have here where I live is capable of such fundamental logic. I have heard people of your ilk, say that it is nothing greater than a tumor. That it is not separate from the mother, and so she should have the right to murder it. Some atheists even believe if the child is no healthy after birth, that it is quite alright to bash its brains out quickly. If religion has done little good in the world, at least some religion place the upmost value on human life. In modern times, the nations that did not, were atheistic. But even people like me that think god is unknowable still place the greatest value on human life, whether developing in the womb, or walking around. Once you devalue the life of the unborn, you decrease the value for every other human life. For where will the arbitrary line be moved going into the future? Given how easily our cops kill these days, one can see it has already been moved, Given how easily we send drones that kill innocent people, life has already seen a devaluation. This loss of value reverberates throughout society, and you cannot stop it. Of course one would have to deny the symbiotic relationship of human relationships, the interconnections and interrelationships of reality in order to dismiss what I have said. But to do so would be utter nonsense. A non Good society has quite a bit of this incoherence, and this pro murder issue of the unborn is a prime example of the incoherence.
Let me make myself clear go foxhastings, so that he might know where I stand. I do not want to make abortion illegal. Yet I think abortion for convenience is the most evil act that man can do, equal to bashing out the brains of the children who are already born. I do not want irresponsible women to pay for their irresponsibility, by having to go to a back alley abortionist. There own lack of taking personal responsibility for their own actions should not end in their own deaths from back alley abortionists. So, I want to keep it legal. But here is the caveat. I want personal responsibility emphasized, in school, and my tax money spent on never ending public service announcements that show abortion as murder while not being punishable by law. I want birth control to be available free to anyone that cannot afford it. With the goal of reducing this murder as much as society can reduce it by education, birth control, and teaching people to a high degree of personal responsibility and social responsibility. Basically the same idea as we should use when it comes to drug use. No punishment involved, and a great emphasis placed upon personal responsibility and education. And then we can drop these incoherent arguments that come from the pro abortion people, who's agenda dehumanizes and devalues human life simply for the mere convenience of the female. For to make something like drugs or abortion illegal solves nothing, but only contributes to more deaths. This is the only intelligent way forward, especially if society is to get back a great value for all human life. Even a secular atheistic society should have the upmost value for human life, in fact, it should be what a secular society has as a fundamental principle. For if not, it is just too easy to morph into what we have seen as atheistic secular societies like stalin's Russia and others who have removed and detested religious beliefs that do place great value upon human life. Now let me throw down a gauntlet. LOL. I say that only an incoherent idiot would argue against what I have laid out. Whether it be a religious idiot or a secular atheist idiot. Both are blinded by their own inability to be coherent. This places the way I think in a minority so small as to be almost nonexistent, I think. I don't see serious brains on either side of this issue. All I see are petty highly conditioned brains that are so unself aware as to be incapable of noting their own conditioning. You must first be aware of how strongly one has been conditioned, to be aware of all of the conditioning, in order to escape being a stupid slave to it. Otherwise, what you call thinking is nothing more than being a parrot.
Talk about incoherent , that last paragraph took honors. Now did you have a point besides trying to demonize atheists....????
Appeal to tradition is a logical fallacy and therefore irrelevant. It is not a good thing to YOU, your opinion on what is good or bad has no relevance. That statement requires facts please produce some. correct, now all you have to do is explain why said "developing human being" is entitled to greater rights than any other "developing human being" .. BTW we are all developing throughout our lifespan. and you are sticking to the social "norm" of all pregnancies being a wonderful, happy thing .. reality is a great number are not. The stats provided are the result of research, if they are wrong please do show how they are wrong, explain how the conclusion reached is in error. Irrelevant to whether pregnancy is more dangerous than abortion. The number of live births is down to one thing ... a choice the female made . .that choice being to accept the injuries and risks that pregnancy incurs. BTW your comment still has absolutely zero relevance to pregnancy being more dangerous than abortion. I'm sorry reality leaves you unable to address the issue, the only brainwashing going on is that produced by pro-lifers. Yet again another statement of opinion without any facts to support it .. do you do this often state something as a fact when it is not?
Well as a fact you are absolutely incorrect, abortion has been legal for far longer than it was ever illegal .. best part is you probably don't even know WHY abortion was made illegal in the first place, here is a hint for you .. it had nothing to do with "saving the unborn" What a load of bullcrap, it is immoral in your opinion, nothing more, nothing less and thankfully your moral viewpoint does not hold sway over other people. So you don't support the banning of abortion then, or the numerous TRAP laws introduced . .because if you do then by indirect action you are forcing your morality onto others. Cop out and evasion. Yep it can be and guess what YOU get to choose whether to drive a car or not, no one can FORCE you to take the risk of driving a car, yet you want to force a woman to take the risk of continuing a pregnancy. The rest of your comment is just crap.
Then you are placing your perception of what "convenience" is above and beyond what others think, not a very good starting place. Good you want to keep it legal .. but bad that you want to demonize people who disagree with your perception of responsibility, and women who have abortions are taking responsibility just not the responsibility YOU think they should take. Which if the right-wing rabid pro-lifers stopped trying to cease comprehensive sex education in schools would be what happens. Do you even know what comprehensive sex education includes? so you want to drop all things pertaining to established legal precedences and, basically, ignore them because they don't gel with your opinion? Agreed Again comprehensive sex education does this. BTW a human life only has as much value as another places upon it. to do so would remove all wars and executions .. a good ideology, un-workable in reality. Bit of information for you, religious beliefs place no higher value on human life than any other belief, look to the history of the world and the number of deaths caused in the name of religious beliefs and then try to tell me that religion places a great value on human life. Talk about a loaded statement, you are making an unjustified assumption that anyone who does not agree with you must be an incoherent idiot .. so your gauntlet is nothing more than a fallacy. Rubbish - it is nothing more than your own assumptions that do not allow you to see an opposing view .. these types of statements are nothing more than a safety net for you to avoid answering others, you can simply claim that those asking the questions or refuting your assertions are incoherent idiots and thus avoid anything you cannot answer, and frankly that is extremely dishonest debating. no it places you into the group who are not prepared to defend their opinions and simply keep stating them as fact while attempting to build a get out clause if anyone should question your opinions. BS, I am more than ready to read any coherent argument against abortion .. however, that argument needs to be backed up with verifiable facts, can you supply any to support your opinion? Again another loaded statement assuming a fact where you have nothing to substantiate it ie another simple get out clause. Again another loaded statement assuming a fact where you have nothing to substantiate it ie another simple get out clause. Pretty much everything in your post is born from a disingenuous thought process - the assumption that anyone who does not agree with you must be; a) An incoherent idiot b) A conditioned brain c) A slave to that conditioning d) A parrot. None of which have any real credence except in your own viewpoint and are nothing more than get out clauses.
What a bunch of garbage. Try READING my posts. That fact you have to even ASK that question speaks volumes. Again, try READING my posts instead of picking on isolated words. Quiz: What did I say a fetus is?
You want more abortions to bolster your political demographic. I didn't say you speak for anyone did I? You people are for teaching young boys and girls the mechanics of sex as well as teaching little girls that they can get an abortion behind their parents' back using the canard 'there going to do it anyway.' It's obvious you want sexualized children. Pedophiles probably appreciate that. No 'pro-abortin' political agenda? You must live under a rock or are lying (which I busted you on several times). I am not anti-choice or anti-abortion as I ALREADY posted many posts ago. Look, try READING before your pre-mature spewing.
The first thing you might want to do is try READING your own posts so that you do not look so silly. You did not say anything about a fetus. What you said is this: Since there are two possible meanings to the phrase "a human life" I asked you for clarification ? What speaks volumes is the fact that you do not understand that there are two possible meanings. This is either disingenuous ignorance, obfuscation or just plain ignorance. Since you do not want to state what you mean I will answer both. 1) if the meaning is "The life of a human" ... In order to claim that a life of a human exists you must first show that a human exists and you have not done so. Clearly something that does not exist does not have much value never mind lowering that value? 2) If the meaning is " a life that is human": Just because an entity such as a heart cell, skin cell, or zygote is both alive and human does not make it a living human. I do not think that moral standards will change at all on the basis of killing a single human cell, as is the zygote. So, despite your attempt at obfuscation, your claim is nonsense any way you slice it or dice it.
It's already clear to anyone who doesn't want to argue just for the sake of argument. There are not two possible meanings IF you are actually following the discussion instead of surgically removing selected words and phrases in order to just argue for the sake of argument. IOW....trolling. Again...I never said 'life of a human' do you have comprehension problems or something or are you just pretending and making up schit as you go along? You are so far afield from the discussion at hand, its hardly worth replying to your diatribes anymore. None of that is what I wrote. It is a fantasy in your own mind. The only 'nonsense' here is what you have posted.
Abortion is a well-known banner of the radical Democratic left in the U.S. It has been a 'litmus test' for decades for political candidates. Do you not follow the news? If you think you are part of 'you people' then who am I to tell you different? Frankly I think you are, nothing you have posted tells me that you are objective in any way on this subject. So...You think young children having sex is just fine......I sure wouldn't want you anywhere near my kids. Yes but pedophiles were never given a hand by fools who think young children should be actually having sex. I am not anti-choice and I am not anti-abortion. I just think that abortion for convenience-sake is immoral and I wonder why people like you want to push it by claiming pregnancy is more 'dangerous', teaching young girls to get secret abortions, teaching young impressionable children how to have sex claiming 'they're going to do it anyway' etc.
First I will compliment you on being able to separate your personal beliefs (strong as they may be) from the desire to force those beliefs on others. This much is admirable. The problem is that you have not really made an argument. At least not one supporting your claim that abortion is murder. Normally, since the onus is on the one making the claim to provide evidence that shows the claim to be true, I do not generally immediately offer evidence to the contrary but in the interest of straightforward debate I will give you evidence contrary to your claim up front. Fact: The zygote is a single living human cell. Clearly, single human cells are not living humans, at least not human heart, blood, skin, brain, and bone cells. All the aforementioned cells I mentioned are "human life". Clearly an entity having the quality of being "human life" is not necessarily a living human such that the term "murder" or "child" can be applied to it. All of the aforementioned human cells are cells that make up the structure of a living human except one. The zygote cell will never be part of a human structure. The DNA inside the zygote is managing a process that might result in the creation of a human but the zygote cell will never be part of the cells that make up the structure of that human. Those cells do not come until much later during the "embryoblast stage". I can not understand how it can be claimed that this single human cell, a cell that will never even be part of the structure of a human, can be classified as a living human ? ... and you certainly have not given an argument as to why one should do so.
LOL Just because you have no refutation to what I have posted is no reason to call it nonsense. You are so scared that your claims will be refuted as nonsense that you will not even clarify our own words and choose to hide behind obfuscation.
If this is a "well-known banner" then you should have no problem producing the evidence to back it up. please do so. nice bit of misrepresentation you have got there, how about actually adressing what was said instead of what you wanted it to say. and what makes you think that is happening now. i'd suggest you actually find out what comprehensive sex education IS before making silly comments like the one above. As is your right. It is not a claim it is a fact.. I'm still waiting for you to produce a shred of evidence to show that the research into this is flawed, would you care to do so? Show me a single piece of comprehensive sex education that does either of the above please, otherwise you are just pissing in the wind .. as usual.
So all those liberals whining "what about victims of rape and incest? You will force them to have babies??"... are basing that on basically nothing. Not sure you did your cause any good with that comment.... oops "Abortion is a Social Good" (the reason this thread stood out in "Today's Posts"), may be one of the most mentally deranged sentences ever typed on PF. Yet, there is not one person surprised that you typed it.
Sorry you were unable to comprehend the article. Did you actually read it? Your attempt to stigmatize aside, at least it got your attention... Legal abortion is a good thing. Banning it is a bad thing. That's what pro-choice people believe, why would anyone be surprised to see it typed out?
There are a significant number of pregnancies associated with rape and incest, it is a valid point to make when some want to criminalize all abortion. Yes, in spite of all your shock and dismay, you have been unable to refute the statement. We are not surprised at that.
What makes an opinion valid is the support provided or some rational which validates that opinion (claim). Generally this takes the form of 1) Statement of claim followed by 2) Support for that claim. So in this example this would look something like. The statement "Abortion is a Social Good" may be one of the most mentally deranged sentences ever typed on PF "Because" ... (some reasons why someone should accept your claim) Anyone can have an opinion, but is that opinion informed ?
