Water Filtering Plant In Donetsk Captured By Ukrainian Forces

Wou-wou-wou, hold your horses there! We talk about Ukraine. A state, formed twenty five years ago - not of petty principalities of slavic tribes hundreds of years ago. And cossacs have nothing to do with Kievan principality of Rus, they were formed ages later and not from population of one precise land. It was a class of people, not a nationality, when it was forming.

 

You made an accusation. Present a proof, supporting that accusation, please.

 

It was poor and illiterate during tsarist times, Ww2, Google the "holodomor", there is plenty of information on it.

 

Don't you know, the Western Ukrainians hate Lenin who created Ukraine and who is the real father of the country, and love Bandera because he helped kill off the Jews and Poles. Strange thought processes, and reminiscent of the terrorists where it isn't what one gains that is important, but rather how much pain they can inflict on others.

 

"it was" is not a proof. It's an opinion.

'Голодомор' famine has nothing to do with education, it's caused not by low education, but by criminal administrative negligence of certain members of Union's administration, such as Grigory Petrovsky, Filipp Goloshchyokin, and Yakov Yakovlev, which lead to losses of people in Ukraine, Kazakhstan, north Caucasus, lower Volga, and Siberia, along with general lack of food across all of Union.

These people were responsible for organizing collectivisation of agriculture, dispersion of food and preventing the famine. As you can see from history, they did not managed to prevent it.
And obviously, these are not the only people responsible for that event, just a few examples.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grigory_Petrovsky
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Filipp_Goloshchyokin
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yakov_Yakovlev


That event has no relation to level of education among population of Ukrainian Soviet Socialistic Republic in 1922-1991.

 

You can read.
HTTPS://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor.

 

And stalin killed off millions of Ukrainians, see my post about holodomor. This thing with bandera is a little old, I see that millions of uke's dying at the hands of stalin, kaganovich, Beria mean nothing to you, but most russian trolls harbor those feelings.

HTTPS://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lazar_Kaganovich

 

Just because the Ukraine had no statehood, doesn't mean that Ukrainians did not exist.

 

Thus, it is what it is - a theory. And scale of famine, amount of people affected by it, serve as proof of famine being not orchestrated.

Now, that we have solved that, I remind you that we started with you stating that Ukrainian SSR was deliberately kept illetirate during existence of Soviet Union. I am still expecting of proof of that claim or withdrawal of it.

 

Writing from Kiev proves that Kievan Rus was a Ukrainian like people at it's core.

The Cossack language is also a Ukrainian style language.

Even if other ethnic groups became Cossacks, doesn't mean it wasn't a Ukrainian Ruthenian dominant order, which it obviously was.

 

So, Ukrainians are responsible for the Holodomor?

Because of Lazar Kaganovich, Grigory Petrovsky, Vlas Chubar, and Yakov Yakovlev?

I have a suspicion they were all the same kind of Ukrainian, the kind that eats gefilte fish.

 

Solved what...there's plenty more on the famines, that's one example.

 

I'm not withdrawing anything, literacy was a significant problem in the former SU.

 

First of all, cossacs lived - and their ancestors live - not only in Ukraine. If you want to be speaking specifically of ukrainian branch of that class/ethnic, you should mention which of them you talk about. Ones from Zaporizhian Sich, I presume.

Second - be clear, you discussing the state of Ukraine, as political formation? - if so, Kievan Rus has nothing to deal with it. If you mean the culture - then it will take a lot of time to make clear what parts of original rus culture are remaining in culture of modern Ukraine, and through what way they been carried there. Because history greatly affects cultures, it changes habits, traditions, laws, languages, clothing, religions. Migrations affect the physical appearance of people, as long as new cultures, carried to culture of majority, change it through assimilation or conflict. In history of cultures, there is no such thing as 'core' - because anything, everything can - and does - change.

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Then show a proof of that. You keep repeating that, logically you should have a source of that knowledge.

You do not find leader of Union in that period of time being georgian and famine affecting Georgian SSR strange? If so - why do you find actions of people from his administration, his political supporters, being strange? Being person of certain ethnic in multinational country hardly affects ones actions. Nationality seldom dictates actions of individual living in country of many nations.

Dictators do what they do not because of their nationality, corrupted politicians do what they do not because of their nationality, criminals do what they do not because of their nationality. Remember that.

 

I've spoken to Don Cossacks online from Russia, who've admitted that their language is most like Ukrainian, rather than Russian.

Regions of Western Kievan Rus from Kiev to the Polish border, were without a doubt most like Ukrainians.

 

And further east and north you move, the more russian influence will be in local culture. Same goes vice versa - the more south of Central Russian Upland you move, the more ukrainian influence will be in local culture. In west russians affected by poles and back. But these cultures are connected for ages, so what is surprising? They can be split further, since in each region there are certain specifics, including linguistical.

But as they similar, and yet different from each other, they different from cultures and languages of medieval countries that existed on these lands. The alphabets itselves been changing through history, adjusting to changing languages. Cultures been changing, and - affecting each other along. Nor ukrainians, nor russians, nor poles, or cossacs are bearers of culture of rus people of medieval time.

Even words 'ukrainians' and 'russians' not always been there. They have been called 'malorossians' and 'grandrossians', and before that there were tudovlans, sevruks, sayans, vodlozers, as sub ethnic groups of rossians, and before there were various princesdoms, and slavic tribes such as drevlans, kriviches, vesi and many others.. And do not forget the migrations of nomads! Alans, pechenegs, bulgars, tatars, many of them went through east Europe, especially it's southern part, through history. They all left some trace in cultures that formed there.

Ukrainians, beloruses, russians and other nationalities that exists there in modern day, are as much made by these people as they made by ruses from medieval principalities.

 

There were crop problems in other parts of the world at about the same time. For instance I read that the cause of the great depression probably had more to do with a bad food crop in Germany than the failure of a small bank in the US. Also at about the same time there were dust storms in states like Oklahoma and Texas which forced people to move to California.

So if all these things are taken into account, (and I really don't know for sure), it looks like the famine in the Soviet Union was caused by a world wide change in climate.

As for all the complaints about the Holodymir by those in Western Ukraine who were not really affected by it, seems like nothing more than a political ploy.

 

Soviet Union was one of big exporters of grain at that period of time, and needs of export at that moment been placed over needs of Union's citizens - which backfired when bad crops happened in Union, which - in combination with insufficient supply of stored grain - lead to famine. People had no personal food supplies, sufficient of sustaining them during famine, and state gave insufficient help to them.

So famine had natural causes, yes - but the casualties and scale of it lie as responsibility of negligent administration that failed to provide people support in that dire period of time.

 

Lots of peoples exist(ed) and never had statehood.
Does every people deserve a state?

If there be Ukrainians, shouldn't they be the original, Russian Orthodox, give me that ole time Ukraine
as opposed to the more recent areas added to ole Ukraine representing a more Polish, Roman Catholic culture?

 

I frankly not even sure why you bother so much about borders and titular nations, we are not fascists here and frankly have bigger problems. Such as groups of barely controllable armed men raging havoc on RF-Ukraine border.

 

Ukraine is a Greek name, and the Greek language doesn't have nouns. The meaning is conveyed by changing the verb endings so the correct translation of Ukraine would be: 'The ones living on the outskirts'. We have to assume by this, that the Byzantines saw the people living in what is now Ukraine as being on the outskirts of the Russian world.

As for the people, the only ones in Ukraine that would be the inheritors of the original Kiev Rus culture, has to be the ones under the Moscow Patriarchate. When the Russians in Eastern Europe left the Orthodox church and went under the Vatican, they adopted a more rigid and less flexible educational system which affected their thought processes and personalities, so that they ceased being a product of Kiev Rus.

This doesn't mean the Russians didn't change either, but it could not have been as drastic since the Russian Orthodox Church itself didn't change.

 

pic. taken in Sevastopol today



Crimea will be the next ...

 

Who are they? I did read that ISIS has been entering ...or rather invited in from Odessa I believe. But I might be wrong, I don't know that much about it.

The latest is that Zacharachenko will be taking over the Ukrainian industries in the Donbas. He also threatened to help the people in the Kiev occupied parts of the Donbas, which means he will be going to war with the 'nationalists'.

 

The next for what, the only thing I know is that Buks are being moved into Crimea. You do know that when one attacks Crimea they are attacking Russia? But look, expect a war, because Poroshenko cannot survive politically otherwise.

Anyway knowing the Russians, they do not believe in idle threats. They plan carefully and when they attack, they do it full force to make sure they win. They do not play games. Expect the worse.

 

Excuse me, BUT! - Greek has nouns. Modern Greek has, Greek in antient ages had, and during Byzantine existence Greek had nouns too. You definitely wrong there.
Also, I have never met ethymologic theory of 'Ukraina' being word of greek descend. May I have look at it? As someone who - without any good result, though, - studied antient Greek at one time, I'd be greatly interested in seeing it.

Actually, that is not correct. Orthodox church in Rus tscardom have went through a number of significant changes. It had adopted 'Third Rome' concept, have acquired autocephaly, and had a big reform in XVII century, which lead to it's split into official Orthodox church and resiliant so called 'Старообрядцы', literally meaning 'People of the Old Rite'. It changed through history, affecting the state and being affected by state in return. Soviet age also greatly affected church, making it less consistent - consequences of which can be seen in modern day confrontation between Russian Orthodox Church and various autocephalous churches on territory of ex-USSR.