why Mormans are not Christian

Because of the message.

Once again, its good to see atheists so quickly resort to the biased sample fallacy that, the evidence for scientology and Mormonism are obviously identical.

Do you have any idea how difficult it would be to substantiate the claims made in the BoM? A small troop of Jews showing up hundreds of years before Christ, who record the initial events and the others who followed who continued the process.

We cannot figure out with any degree of certainty exactly what caused the Mayans to fail and that happened a thousand years after the events of the BoM are supposed to have taken place.

And yet, you are convinced that the BoM is a work of fiction, having failed to even acknowledge the evidential difficulty of establishing that fact, because anything that came from God must be a fake?

Tell me, the covenant came from an erstlwhile buring bush .... the ten commandments are nevertheless ... true. People no doubt laughed when they heard that a burning bush gave Jews their law .... but those who laughed have been swept away by history and the Jews remain.

Mormonism is growing, not shrinking. What does that tell you? Obviously, its fake .... because you say so and because you compare it to something that is obviously fake? Maybe you should have just used the old atheist stand by and compared it to a make floating tea pot in space or a magic plate of spaghetti? Same logical cop out.

 

And you have yet to prove any racism in the scripture you quoted. You say the BoM is racist towards people of color. You also said or extrapolated that Mormons are then racists and bigots. I told you that at least 6.5 million Mormons are people of color, which should suggest to you that you have erred.

A racist book or philosophy would seek to convince one race to dominate and subject another particular race to injustice. But the BoM seeks to save and enlighten regardless the race. Do you honestly believe that 6.5 million people of color would belong to a religion which as you think, effectively hates them...or that they would even be allowed to join? A little common sense might suggest that the flaw is in your interpretation rather than the judgments of the 6.5 million people of color whom you pretend to represent, not to mention the many other millions of members.

 

Most works of fiction promote a "message" that goes beyond the fictitious story within. Ever read Aesop's Fables? Classic fairy tales? They all have a message, it doesn't make them true.

Stick with what you know first. I've said nothing to indicate whether or not I'm an atheist, an irrelevant point to this subject. I was only responding to Injeun's criticism of someone's "unsubstantiated" claim that Joseph Smith's book is fiction. Understanding the BoM as fiction does not need to be "substantiated" in order to be valid.

Don't I! The same dilemma besets scientology. How to prove the stuff made up in someone's head actually happened? Impossible.

But we know an awful lot about Joe Smith, his active imagination, the religious influences of his childhood, the era in which he lived.... Look, either he made it all up himself or it happened exactly as he described it. That he made it up is so much more plausible that it hurts.

No; but if it came from God, then it sure leads to far more questions than it answers.

I'm not sure what you're trying to say here. The Egyptians laughed at the Jews and they're still here. The Arabs laughed at them and they're still here. What's your point exactly?

Absolutely nothing. Islam is growing. Buddhism is growing. Hinduism is growing. Christianity is growing. It's logically impossible for them to all be right, yet they're all growing. Hell, Atheism is growing.

It's fake because some guy made it up; but if you want to believe it that's your prerogative. I only made the comparison to Scientology because it's another religion that someone made up and lots of people believe. What I don't understand is how you can acknowledge the one is so "obviously fake" but the other one isn't.

Cop-out??? Talk about cop-out! "It would be really hard to prove the claims made in the BoM." That's a cop-out!

 

Teh only thing that you have done here is make up a work of fiction in order to justify calling something you have already rejected fiction. For instance, the fact that Jospeh Smith was religious minded? DUH! Why would God choose an athtard to be his Prophet?

You are guilty of exactly what you charge Mormons of doing. Simple as that.

You may also note that all major denominations have something called Apologetics. That would include Mormonism. So perhaps instead of an exercise in creative writing and accusation, you could attempt to see what arguementation the church uses and ... shock ... behave like an academic of scientist would and address actual arguementation instead of rampid specualtion.

I do appreciate how atheists just seem to know things and never have to bother with study, but, some of us have, and when you do? Well, the inconsistencies of laziness and blind spoken blather are rather transparent.

Maybe you should ACTUALLY learn about something BEFORE you find excuses to reject it. What you do is no different than what Islamophobes do to Islam.

 

I have not claimed that God gave me special revelation. I have not sold a work of fiction as an historical record. I have not asked people to join a movement or support it with money. You, it would appear, are guilty of false accusations.

You mean like Scientology does?

What are you talking about? Mormons don't behave like academic scientists when discussing Mormonism, why is that suddenly important? And it's the Mormon claims that are rampant speculation. I'm only applying common sense.

I still don't know why you keep talking about atheists, that has nothing to do with this. The only thing that's transparent is that Joe Smith was a creative writer and Brigham Young was a master manipulator.

Stop changing the subject. I'm not afraid of Mormons, I just find them either illogical or highly gullible; sometimes both. But the fact remains that it's perfectly reasonable for people to view the BoM as a work of fiction, and there is no evidence, zero whatsoever, to persuade them otherwise.

 

THere is no subject change.

The fact that you don't claim God gave your creative writing doesn't make it true. That is not how science and evidenced based reasoning work.

You've not read the BoM, I doubt seriously that you have given Mormon history a thorough look, and I doubt even stronger that you have examined Mormon apologetics in the sightest - where indeed totally unaware of it until I told you.

We see this with anti-Catholicism (all priests are undoubtedly pedophiles), anti-Islam (all Muslims are terrorists) anti-Semitism (all Jews want to kill Palestinians).

So apparently, we can just make blind statements and call them fact - clearly Joseph Smith just made everything up? Because you say so? The difficulties of proving the claims made in the BoM apparently doesn'r even deserve an honorable mention, just the fact that it is wrong?

Agh, so your faith that it is wrong must be taken at face value and absolutely revered?

Those who faith tells them it is true? They must be mocked and derided?

You are exactly what you hate in Mormons. That simple.

 

On one hand, some say that Joseph Smith and the BoM is a fraud because there are no original plates. On the other hand, one may also say that the claim of fraud is equally unsubstantiated, as if the claimers had plates of truth themselves (which of course they can't produce) proving Joseph Smith and the BoM fraudulent. At least Joseph Smith has a comprehensible excuse for the whereabouts of his justification. But where is the justification for the claims of fraud?

We live, and yet there is no scientific proof that there should be life. Why is a thing so, when there is nothing to establish it. We only know that we live and love and procreate. But there is nothing upon which this fact is established. Still, many call the BoM a fraud because there is nothing to justify its existence. Are we then all frauds without justification? We only know that we exist. Are we then but a dream? Clearly some distant majesty is our keeping and legitimacy. Otherwise to what do we aspire?

 

Appeal to popularity, a fallacy.

I have already posted the verse, if cursing people with dark skin is not viewed racist, then you are lost and without hope.

 

Why are you appealing to science and evidence? Nothing you've claimed is based on any science or evidence whatsoever.

You know you're in trouble when you start resorting to baseless claims about your opponent. (Are you a politician?) I could say the exact same thing about you. I could reason that if you really read the BoM, gave the history a thorough look, or examined Mormon apologetics, then you would see it for the work of fiction that it is. Point being you have not helped your argument at all, you just sound desperate.

Don't you understand that Joe Smith initiated the cascade of "blind statements" put forth as fact? He made the initial, baseless claim that an angel visited him, led him to golden plates, and so on. When people respond to that by asking for proof and he doesn't provide any, you can't accuse everyone else of making false claims. Joe Smith made the claims that have yet to be proven.

This statement betrays your lack of education.

 

That is EXACTLY the point that is being made.

You are claiming that the BoM is known falsehood, and you are using neither science nor evidence to back up the claim. What you are doing is what you accuse the BoM of being .... an exercise in creative writing.

Mormons have apologetics - you have ... excuses.

Point is clear, as is the lack of education in one of us.

 

And then studiously ignored the fact that millions of people of color are in disagreement with YOUR interpretation.

You telling black men they hate black men .... themselves - and considering yourself logical.

This is the type of arguementation, and the absolute stubborn refusal to acknowledge even the simpliest of FACTS that is summed up sucienctly as athtarded.

 

It's not an appeal to popularity. It's an appeal to your sense of reason. You began by stating that the BoM doctrines are racist and that therefore the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints is a racist church filled with racists.

So I told you that contrary to your belief which is that it is a church of white racists, that in fact half its members are actually people of color.

You then abandon your position, without acknowledging your error, that it is church of white racists. And take instead, the tact that its colored membership, as stated by me, is an appeal to popularity, which you say is a fallacy. But if it is a fallacy, then why did you alter your position relative to it.

In fact, Mormonism is a tiny fraction of the worlds Christian religions, which themselves are about a third of all religions. Seeing that half of Mormons are people of color, and seeing that the whole of Mormonism is a tiny fraction of the worlds christian sects, which themselves are but a third of all religions. Then it stands to reason that my mention of the 6.5 million people of color in the Mormon faith is hardly an appeal to the popularity of the religion, but rather a statement of truth in line with the topic or your point of contention. As I said then, it is an appeal to your sense of reason rather than an attempt to bully your reasoning by volume or slight of hand.

 

On the contrary, Joe Smith claimed that an angel visited him and led him to a couple golden plates which were the source for the BoM. The entire Mormon religion is based on this claim. People who don't buy into this are not making any truth claims, they are only asking for evidence, something you like to talk about but can't seem to provide.

 

It is an appeal to authority, you are saying that because so many people are Mormons, so many people of color, that there is no way that Mormonism can be racist. That is an appeal to popularity.

It does not address the verse I cited.

 

And, as I pointed out several posts ago - that claim is impossible to verify isn't it? Indeed the literal narrative of the BoM is almost impossible difficult to prove or disprove.

Its an act of faith either way.

Your faith is apparently in finger pointing and scoffing. Mormons? Well, their faith leads them to affirm the truth they see in the book, their families, and their God.

The finger pointer or the affirmer - you tell me which is a better use of faith? Mormons are some of the most conscientious, hard working, moral people I have ever met, regardless of what you think of the BoM. Their doubters? Chair bound indolents. You tell me which faith is better?

 

I don't know about "half," but it's true that the Mormon church is no longer exclusively white. What's amazing is that Mormon leadership convinced its people - even the blacks - that even though their skin color was the "mark" of a curse on their ancestors because of some sin, this doctrine was not racist. While anyone outside the organization sure sees it that way, they've managed to persuade their people that calling blacks "cursed" is not racist. Impressive!

 

Execpt, as a Mormom actually explained - that is not quite what it says. It refers to a specific set of people in the ancient Americas who were cursed because of the sinful ways to be marked as different. In that case, with darker skin.

To extrapolate that this means all black people or darker skinned people? The only bigotry present is in the illogical extrapolation. There is a reason why the claim and is tawdry interpreation comes, at least in this thread, from atheists.

Perhaps you should examine your own biases rather than hide behind finding bias in others.

You are not afraid of Mormons, but for some reason, there repeated explanation about ONE verse in their doctrine must be read the way YOU, not they, wish it to be read?

Like I said, atheists who hate religion seem to hate the very things they do.

 

Bingo.

Clear and concise.

 

The absurdity of this claim speaks for itself. But ignoring that, for the sake of discussion, why exactly weren't the blacks allowed to hold the priesthood? Just because you've been snowed into redefining racism doesn't mean the doctrines aren't racist.

 

Your opinion might have more weight if you could spell Mormon.

 

"Why (you ask) weren't blacks allowed to hold the Priesthood?" To test their faith, obviously.

The BoM and the Bible say that the Jews were enslaved and cursed because they murdered the prophets and the Savior. Does this mean that all of Christianity is racist, including the Prophets and Jesus himself?

 

Are you serious?

The argument could certainly be made that the Christian doctrine is racist, and sexist, and a bit violent.

 

When something is no longer practiced, does it make sense to pretnd that it still does?

Atheists were as racist as anyone else in the 1930's - therefore you are all racists.

Its YOUR standard, do you want to be judged by it?

I do like how any religion must be perfect in all things, and is not allowed to evolve and make itself better, to realize and correct errors. Atheists, well they exist to remind people that everyone has flaws in their history except them .... who are perfect and whose past has no hidden skeletons.

Its all about putting others down, not about reality. Why WAS the Mormon Church wrong? Many reasons, some not good. It corrected itself, and only you are stuck in the past.

And all Muslims are terrorists too ... YOUR standard.

 

The same can be said of atheist doctrine. How many prominent atheist women are there like Dawkins and Hitchens? How many prominent black atheists are there? Indian? Pakistani? African? South American?

Racist schmucks!

Be nice to see atheists apply their standards to their positions. Just once!

 

Obviously. Or maybe it's because the racist elements of the church died off and it became hip to treat blacks equally. The timing is awfully suspicious.

It's funny how those cursed Jews were admitted to the Mormon church from the beginning while the blacks had to, er, "test their faith." Gee, I wonder what sin those color-marked races did that was even worse than murdering prophets and the Savior?