why Mormans are not Christian

Wait, are you calling anyone who does not believe Mormonism an atheist?

"I told the brethren that the Book of Mormon was the most correct of any book on earth, and the keystone of our religion, and a man would get nearer to God by abiding by its precepts, than by any other book." -Joseph Smith, Jr.​

I guess you are no longer standing by your man there.

So you admit that the Mormon church used to be racist?

 

1. Of course I'm serious. How far from a place do you think you can travel and upon returning say that you've covered no ground?

2. So you're saying that white Christians who worship Jesus who was a Jew, are themselves racists for worshipping a Jew? That's just incomprehensibly loopy.

 

It is good to be suspicious. Have you ever read the BoM and mustered the courage to meet the challenge regarding its validity, and prayed to know of its surety?

 

That is simply asinine.

Not any more than god incarnating himself as his son to convince himself to change the rules he himself made.

In case you were unaware, the difference between the Jews and the Christians is the acceptance of Jesus as being the messiah. That is the difference and the divide between the two camps. Whether or not Christians worship a Jew is irrelevant.

 

Yep! And God told me Mormonism is a false religion started by false prophets. What now?

 

This is interesting. I hope I'm not violating any rules by posting it...or boring anyone to death:
-----------------------

If one scoffs at the missionary's explanation of the Book of Mormon, he is in so many words claiming it to be false: That it is a deceiving fraud formulated through the efforts and talents of a common man. What is produced by one man can always be duplicated by another. The challenge that the Book of Mormon makes to the world is that of duplication. Because the book complies with every one of the following conditions, in order to produce a similar record, one must comply with the same conditions.

Here is the challenge: Can you accept it?

1. Write a history of ancient Tibet covering a period from 600 B.C. to 450 A.D. Why ancient Tibet? Because you know no more about Tibet than Joseph Smith (or anyone else) knew about ancient America.

2. You are 23 years of age.

3. You have had no more than three years of formal school education, and have spent your life in backwoods farming communities.

4. Your history must be written on the basis of what you now know. There was no library that held information for Joseph Smith. You must use none. There is to be no research of any kind.

5. Your history must be 531 pages and over 300,000 words in length.

6. Other than a few grammatical corrections, you must have no changes in the text. The first edition as you dictate it to your secretary must stand forever.

7. This record is to contain the history of two distinct and separate nations, along with histories of different contemporary nations or groups of people.

8. You must describe their religious, economic, political, and social cultures and institutions. Cover every phase of their society, including the names of their coins.

9. Change your style of writing many times. Many ancient authors contributed to the Book of Mormon, each with his own style.

10. Weave into your history the religion of Jesus Christ and the pattern of Christian living.

11. You must claim that your smooth narrative is not fiction with moral value, but true and sacred history.

12. You must include in you book fifty-four chapters dealing with wars, twenty-one historical chapters, fifty-five chapters on visions and prophecies. Remember, when you begin to write visions and prophecies, you must have your record agree meticulously with the Bible. You must write seventy-one chapters on doctrine and exhortation, and you must check every statement with the scriptures or you will be proven a fraud. You must write twenty-one chapters on the ministry of Christ, and every thing you claim he said and every testimony you write in your book about Him must agree absolutely with the New Testament.

13. Many of the facts, claims, ideas, and statements given as absolute truth in your writing must be entirely inconsistent with the prevailing beliefs of the world. Some of these worldly beliefs must be the direct opposite of your claims.

14. Included in your narrations will be authentic modes of travel; whether or not those ancient people used fire; description of their clothing, crops, mourning customs, and types of government. You must invent about 280 new names that will stand up under scrutiny through the years as to their proper application and derivation.

15. You will have to properly use figures of speech, similes, metaphors, narrations, exposition, descriptions, oratory, epic lyric, and parables.

16. You must invite the ablest scholars and experts to examine the text with care, and you must strive diligently to see that your book gets into the hands of those eager to prove it a forgery, and who are most competent to expose every flaw in it.

17. Thorough investigation, scientific and historical evidence, and archeological discovery for the next 125 years must verify its claims and prove detail after detail to be true, for many of the details you put in your history are still buried beneath the soil of Tibet.

18. You must publish it to every nation, kindred, tongue, and people declaring it to be the word of God and another witness for the Lord Jesus Christ.

19. The book must not contain any absurd, impossible, or contradictory statements. Your history must not contain any statement that will contradict any other statement elsewhere in the volume.

20. Many theories and ideas as to its origin must arise, and after discovering and examining the facts, they must fail. You have claimed that your knowledge had come from divine origin, and this claim continues to stand as the only possible explanation. The strength of this explanation must not decrease as time passes, but actually increases to the point where it becomes the only logical explanation.

21. Your record is to fulfill many Bible prophecies, even in the exact manner in which it shall come forth, to whom delivered, its purposes, and its accomplishments.

22. Call down an angel from heaven in the middle of the day and have him bear testimony to four honest, dignified citizens of your community that the record is the word of God. These witnesses must bear the angel's testimony to the world, not for profit or gain, but under great sacrifice and severe persecution, even to their death beds. You must put that testimony to the test by becoming an enemy to these men.

23. Thousands of great men, intellectual giants, national and international personalities, and scholars for 165 years must accept your history and its teachings even to the point of laying down their life rather than deny their testimony of it.

24. You must include with within the record this promise: "And when ye shall receive these things, I would exhort you that ye would ask God the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these are not true; and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, He will manifest the truth of it unto you by the power of the Holy Ghost." (Injeuns favorite)

25. Missionaries must bear record to the world for the next 165 years that they know the record to be true because they put the promise to the test and found it to be true. The truth of it was manifested to them by the power of the Holy Ghost.

26. Over 52,900 plus competent salesman must be so sold on your book that they gladly give up two or more years of their lives to take it to all parts of the world for distribution. They not only pay their own way during these years, but return bearing testimony that the time spent will remain as one of the highlights of their lives. They receive nothing in return for their efforts but the joy of having shared your book with others.

27. Your book must not only raise the standards of millions of people but do it in such a way that they become one of the great moral, ethical, and dynamic marvels of the day. They must become world renowned for this.

28. For the next 20 years you must watch those that follow and you, your family, and the dearest of your loved ones persecuted, driven time after time from their homes, beaten, tortured, starved, frozen and killed. Tens of thousands must undergo the most extreme hardships in your presence just because they believe your claims concerning the origin and content of what you have written on ancient Tibet.

29. You must gain no wealth from your work, but many times lose all that you have. Like those that believe you, you must submit yourself to the most vile persecution. And finally after 20 years of this, give your own life in a very savage and brutal manner, for your testimony concerning your history book. This must be done willingly on your part.

30. Start right now and produce this record which covers 1,000 years of history, doing it, not in the peaceful atmosphere of your community, but under the most trying of circumstances which include being driven from your home several times, and receiving constant threats upon your life. Please have your book completed, talk a friend into mortgaging his farm to raise money to have it printed - all in 60 days.

There is only one answer: The Book of Mormon is a divine record. If not, its origin must be stated and its claims must be explained by the critic. It isn't enough to merely discard it as false and forget about it!

The first thing to do in examining any ancient text is to consider it in the light of the origin and background there is no need to look farther, since historical forgery is virtually impossible.
http://www.lds-mormon.com/challenge.shtml

 

And I'm supposed to believe that?

 

This is laughable.

The premise is an argument of incredibility, a fallacy.

So, any word on the Native Americans being the lost tribe of Israel despite DNA evidence suggesting otherwise? Or perhaps many of the other "truths" in Mormonism that are not actually true or factual?

1 Nephi

"I make a record in the language of my father ... the language of the Egyptians." That's a strange language an Israelite around 600 BCE to write in! 1:2

Apparently the 400+ km hike from Jerusalem to the Red Sea took only three days. 2:5-6

Nephi named a "continually running" river that flowed from Arabia to the Red Sea after his son Laman. But there are no permanent rivers in Arabia and there is no evidence that such rivers existed in 600 BCE. 2:8-9

God made the New World just for Nephi and his family. (For though it had been occupied by the Native Americans for tens of thousands of years, God made it for Nephi, not for them.) 2:20

Laban's sword blade was made of steel, long before steel existed. 4:9

"And he, supposing that I spake of the brethren of the church, and that I was truly that Laban whom I had slain, wherefore he did follow me."
Laban's servant figured Nephi was Laban and that he spoke for the church. What church? The Jews in 600 BCE didn't have churches, did they? 4:26

Lehi's brass plates told the story of Adam and Eve "who were our first parents." (So Mormons know Evolution is false.) 5:11

Nephi sees "many cities" settled by the Nephites in the New World. Yet no evidence of them has ever been found. 12:3

And then it came to pass that Nephi broke his steel bow. Of course steel didn't exist at the time, wouldn't work well for a bow anyway, and would be hard to break. But, oh well. This is the Book of Mormon. 16:18

They come to a place that they call Bountiful, "because of its much fruit and also wild honey." But the Arabian coastline does not abound in fruit or honey, and hasn't for many thousands of years. 17:5

"We did work timbers of curious workmanship." But where did Nephi get the lumber? There are very few trees in the Arabian desert. 18:1

After arriving in the New World, Nephi and company planted all of the seeds that they brought from "the land of Jerusalem" and "they did grow exceedingly." Yet there is no evidence that Near Eastern crops ever grew in the New World
in pre-Columbian times. 18:24

Nephi found cows, horses, oxen, asses, and goats and goats when he arrived in the New World in 590 BCE. Yet none of these domesticated animals existed in North America before the Europeans brought them over 2000 years later. 18:25
2 Nephi

In 590 BCE, Lehi and company found the Americas completely uninhabited. 1:8-9

Nephi brought along the brass plates and the magic ball (or compass) that God made with his own hands. This was about 1600 years before compasses were used in navigation. 5:12

Nephi makes many swords [like Laban's, made of "the most precious steel" (1 Ne 4:9)]. Yet there is no evidence of metal swords in the New World before Columbus. 5:14

Nephi teaches his followers to build buildings and work in iron, copper, brass, steel, gold, and silver. But evidence is lacking for such pre-Columbian metallurgy, and it would be well beyond the capabilities of a handful of immigrants from the ancient Near-East around 590 BCE. 5:15

Wasn't it God that cut Rahab (the sea monster) to pieces, wounded the dragon, and dried up the sea? Yeah, it was him all right. Who else could do that? 8:9-10

Jacob tells the Nephites that they are on an isle of the sea, and since the Bible mentions "isles of the sea" (see for example Isaiah 24:15), there must be other isles that are inhabited by the descendants of other ancient seafaring Jews. (As I'm sure you've guessed by now, the other inhabitants of the "isles of the sea" are the Polynesians.) 10:20-21

"The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb...." I wonder what will become of the spiders. Will they be more friendly toward flies? And will the parasitic wasps find another way to feed their larvae? Or will they continue to feed off the living bodies of caterpillars? 21:6

"And the weaned child shall put his hand in the cockatrice' den." A cockatrice is a serpent, hatched from a ****'s egg, that can kill with a glance. They are rare nowadays. 21:8

According to this verse, the moon produces its own light and the earth does not move. 23:10

When God gets really angry, he causes earthquakes. 23:13

Dragons will live in Babylonian palaces and satyrs will dance there. 23:21-22

"Out of the serpent's root shall come forth a cockatrice, and his fruit shall be a fiery flying serpent." What ever happened to these fascinating biblical creatures? 24:29

"And the weaned child shall put his hand in the cockatrice's den." A cockatrice is a serpent, hatched from a ****'s egg, that can kill with a glance. They are rare nowadays. 30:14
Enos

A Cmimeter is a curved sword with the sharp edge on the convex side. This type of sword did not exist at the time Enos was supposedly written (ca. 500 BCE). Indeed there is no evidence that swords of any kind existed in pre-Columbian America. 1:20

The Nephites planted "all manner of grain" and all manner of cattle, goats, and horses. (Cattle, horses, and European grains were absent in pre-Columbian North America.) 1:21
Jarom

The Nephites fortified their cities. (Why is there no evidence for these fortified cities?) 1:7

The Nephites "multplied exceedingly" and "became exceedingly rich" in gold, silver, iron, copper, brass, and steel making tools and weapons "of every kind." This was before steel existed, of course, and no evidence for any of these Nephite weapons, tools, cities, or technologies have ever been found. 1:8
Mosiah

Lehi, a 7th century Israelite, was taught in the language of the Egyptians. 1:4

The Nephites had to hand over half of their barley to the Lamanites. But that wouldn't have been a big deal since barley didn't exist in the New World at the time. 7:22

Ammon finds ancient swords. If swords existed in pre-Columbian America, why is there no evidence of it today? 8:11

Zeniff and his people plant all kinds of crops, including wheat and barley, neither of which were present until the Europeans brought them to America. 9:9

Zeniff arms his people with swords and cimeters. No evidence for these pre-Columbian weapons has ever been found. 9:16

More swords and cimeters. But no evidence for these pre-Columbian weapons has ever been found. 10:8

"And of their brass and their iron ... fatlings ... and grain." -- none of which existed in the New World before being introduced by Europeans. 11:3

"King Noah built many elegant and spacious buildings" ornamented with gold, silver, iron, brass, copper, and ziff.
Why is there no evidence for these fancy buildings? There were many of them, decorated with gold and silver. Where are they now? And the metallurgy technology for iron and brass didn't exist prior to European contact. But there was plenty of ziff around at the time so that wouldn't have been a problem. 11:8
Alma

The Amlicites were armed with swords and cimeters (ca. 87 BCE). But no evidence for these weapons has ever been found. 2:12

No metal coins (ezrons, senines, ontis, etc.) have been found from pre-Columbia America. 11:4-19

The New World in 78 BCE had many temples, sanctuaries, and synagogues that "were built after the manner of the Jews." Yet no evidence of these magnificent buildings has ever been found. 16:13

Swords (presumably made of metal) are again mentioned as though though they were common in pre-Columbian America. But no evidence for their existence has ever been found. 17:7

Ammon had lots of horses an chariots, at a time when neither horses nor chariots existed in the New World. 18:9-10

 

Lamoni had horses and chariots. But horses and wheeled transportation didn't exist in the Pre-Columbian New World. 20:6

Just another of the many swords that are mentioned in the Book of Mormon at a time and place where swords did not exist. 20:16

More metal swords, cimeters, and breastplates, none of which has ever been found. 43:18-20, 43:37-38, 44:8, 44:17
Helaman

The Lamanites (Native Americans) had "an innumerable army" that was armed with swords and cimeters. Yet no evidence for such weapons in the Pre-Columbian New World has ever been found. 1:14

The Nephites "began to cover the whole earth." Yet no evidence for Native Americans of Israelite descent has ever been found. 3:8

The Nephites built cities, temples, synagogues, sanctuaries, "and all manner of buildings." But no trace of them has ever been found. 3:9

The Nephites had a large timber industry. They exported "much by the way of shipping." Of course, there is no evidence for any of this now.

The Nephites built "many cities, both of wood and of cement." No evidence of them exists today. 3:11

The Nephites built ships, temples, synagogues, and sanctuaries. But no one has found any evidence of them. 3:14

The Nepites wrote many books and records "of every kind", but no evidence for them exists today. 3:15

"From the west sea [Pacific], even unto the east [Atlantic]; it being a day's journey for a Nephite." (Nephites could walk 5000 kilometers in one day.) 4:7
3 Nephi

And God's prophecy came true! That night "there was no darkness when night came ... but it was as light as thought it was mid-day." 1:15, 19

More talk of horses and chariots at a time and place in which neither existed. 3:22

Domesticated horses did not exist in per-Columbian America. 4:4, 6:1

When Jesus died, the inhabitants of many great cities died with him. Entire cities were sunk into the ocean, or were burned, or destroyed by earthquakes. 8:8-10, 14

When Jesus died, "the face of the whole earth became deformed." 8:17-18

For three days after Jesus died, there was absolutely no light -- not from the sun, moon, or stars, or from candles, campfires, or fireflies. 8:20-22
4 Nephi

"They did build cities."
(But no evidence of them can be found today.) 7

"But there were many cities which had been sunk."
(But no evidence of them can be found today.) 9
Mormon

"They would struggle with the sword for their lives."
(There were no swords in the pre-Columbian New World.) 2:15, 6:9, 15
Ether

The Jaredites were Israelites who lived at the time of the Tower of Babel. (Genesis 11:1-9) 1:33

The Jaredites brought domesticated old world animals and plants "of every kind" to the New World. 1:41

"They did also carry with them deseret, which, by interpretation, is a honey bee."
There were no honey bees in the New World before they were introduced by Europeans in the 17th century. (Wikipedia: Origin and distribution of the genus Apis) 2:3

The brother of Jared made 16 small stones, as clear as glass, out of molten rock. He then asked God to touch the stones to make them into lights to light up the inside of the barges. God did as the brother of Jared requested. 3:1-6

"He ... made swords out of steel." 7:9

"All manner of cattle, of oxen, and cows, and of sheep, and swine, and of goats ... horses, and asses, and elephants"
None of these animals existed in the New World at the time it was supposedly occupied by the Jaredites . 9:18-19

"Coriantum took to wife, in his old age, a young maid, and begat sons and daughters; wherefore he lived until he was an hundred and forty and two years old." 9:24

"There came forth poisonous serpents also upon the face of the land, and did poison many people." 9:31

"Lib also did that which was good in the sight of the Lord. And ... the poisonous serpents were destroyed." 10:19

Brass, iron and silks -- none of which existed in the Pre-Columbian New World. 10:23-24

"There had been slain two millions of mighty men, and also their wives and their children." Millions of people were "slain by the sword", yet no swords have ever been found from pre-Columbian America. 15:2
http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/BOM/sci/long.html

 

Well you believe Joe Smith, what's the difference?

 

The difference is the appeal to popularity.

Being that you do not have a million followers, you can't use the fallacy to justify your fallacious "argument".

lol

 

Sincerity and intuition.

 

And what are you doing? Funny, once again, any dolt with google can get anything they want, save actually understanding the origins of the BoM. Maybe you should read it rather than contonuing to get your record of Mormonism from atheists.

Why atheists, who do not read or understand a religion consider themselves experts on the faith of others is simply ludicrious.

The blind posting of an atheist web site, untested, unexamined, unexplained .... and athtards think they are right.

No matter the religion - some atheists can only take a dump on it. As soon as you are critical of atheism? Well, you are a bigot.

That's all this is.

Their faith says no, so it must be science!

Lets examine two:

"Nephi sees "many cities" settled by the Nephites in the New World. Yet no evidence of them has ever been found. 12:3

And then it came to pass that Nephi broke his steel bow. Of course steel didn't exist at the time, wouldn't work well for a bow anyway, and would be hard to break. But, oh well. This is the Book of Mormon. 16:18"

A Bow with a metallic core is quite common during this period. Most bows are comibination of wood and sinew, etc, made for strength.

There are plenty of cities that have been found in the New World aren't there - or did the Spanish not find the Aztecs when they arrived? And there are no great cities other than that?

Guess when this happened?

"American diplomat and amateur archaeologist John Lloyd Stephens and English artist Frederick Catherwood begin a series of explorations into Maya regions, revealing the full splendour of classical Maya civilization to the world for the first time."

Are you saying a back woods boy knew all about this? Because the Mayans were at their height at precisely the same time that the BoM claims that there were cities found ... and there are. The BoM claims these early inhabtants were eventually all wiped out - and they were.

Oh well.

 

Or the fact that I doubt an atheist asked God for much of anything, as, if he did, he wouldn't be an atheist would he?

Of course, there is no point in mentioning what the Holy Spirit is supposed to do is there? Our scholars already know this? I doubt it.

 

Anyone can act sincere. Anyone can have faulty intuition.

Please address the falsehoods cited regarding the Book of Mormon.

 

I just take it like this. To me, a defining characteristic of Christianity is belief in the Trinity. Namely, the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are one but different. I don't think the Mormons have this belief, which to me makes them non-Christian. Doesn't make them bad people of course, just not Christian.

 

Mormons have something called the God Head. Many other Christian denominations do not believe in the Catholic version of the Trinity - are they also not Christians?

 

Of course, he doesn't have to address or disprove any of the points made about the veracity of the claim ... typical.

 

It's hard to state numbers, Neutral, because atheists don't wear special underwear or jewlery and don't have gang signs to show affiliation so we don't really know the numbers.

You do seem to be having an attack of projection but I would say that not all religious people are racist or sexist. Some are and some religions are inherently sexist.

 

Your gullibility with respect to the Mormon faith betrays your lack of intuition.

 

That's what I've been trying to tell you! I'm a theist! God talks to me all the time! In plain english, though, without all the flowery King James stuff everyone else makes him sound like. And one thing he has been clear about: Mormonism is a false religion. So I guess it's just my word against Joe's.

 

Yep, they call themseves atheists ... people who don't believe in God and proudly ... wait, they are actually weak atheists who may be wrong .... actually, they are agnostic atheists .... and now, they are totally and completely uncountable because atheists are both undefineable and unfathomable.

Really though, when people apply the standards of judgement to atheists that they apply to others .... they are automatically bigots. That there are two atheists on this thread alone who are literally stating that Mormons are racists based on an absurd interpretation of a single sentence of scripture is avoided entirely. Yet, when you disagree with that, and note that atheists behave like this on a rather massive scale ... its just projection, no need to acknowlegde the problem (like the evidence for God - or anything else) hence there is no reason to offer an actual rebuttal

Appy your standards to your position. Of course, if you, and a great many other atheists actually did this, you would suddenly find that you have far less to whine about. And what would atheists do if they had nothing to whine and complain about?

Now THAT would be an interesting question to see an atheist answer.

No religion to (*)(*)(*)(*)(*) about? whatever would atheists be left with? Nothing.

 

I may have zero followers, but I'm sure I have a few billion people who agree with me! Think they'd let me appeal to popularity with that?

 

Sue you are, you are a theist and there are magic floating tea pots in space too.

Once again, as you've come full circle, why is your faith valid but no one else's is? Why is you claim that what others beleive is false -with no evidence or arguementation - that they are racist, in defiance of evidence - valid?

Agh, a faith that drives people to build Temples, to send out missionaries, to volunteer, to set high standards and work toward them .... or the faith that involves petulent finger pointing and double standards?

I think we know which faith is false.

Disagreeing with Mormonism is one thing, claiming its false because you say so? Well, news flash, you are not God. Try an open mind and a little bit of tolerance and, I promise you, your world will change.

Don't believe me?

Well, my world has Muslims, Jews, Hindus, Christians, Buddhists, Bramists, etc.

Yours has ... atheists pointing at everyone else and wondering why no one likes them. IF ONLY THEY ALL UNDERSTOOD HOW SMART ATHEISTS WERE!

http://blog.lib.umn.edu/edgell/home/Strib Atheist Faith and Values.html

 

Well I wanted to give them every opportunity to be honest and reasonable. But the learned atheist cannot read a sealed book.