US Lawmakers Seek to Criminalize Boycotts of Israel

Hi Gilos, no they did not murder the soldiers. They died in action. I have had an opportunity to look it up. It is also questionable whether this was a deliberate Hezbolla action. They had certainly been saying for a long time that they would kidnap soldiers but the timing was not right for them what with it being in the summer when they had affluent visitors. It had not been planned by Hezbolla. Was completely opportunistic to the people there and the situation on the day.

I suspect you believed you could sort out those 'terrorists' once and for all - both Hamas and Hezbolla as you did several sorties into Gaza killing 'dozens of fighters and scores of civilians'. You arrogantly thought you had Hezbolla's number and you did not. You were unable to beat them despite inflicting on the civilians of Lebanon a far higher death rate than they did on Israel.

and now we get the reason for the H's desire to kidnap Israeli soldiers

so yes it was to get prisoners released but only because Israel was refusing to release ones she had already promised to.

and H's did not kill the 8 soldiers they were killed when they decided to chase after them

(link will come at end.)

The article says there was some concern in Israel whether the soldiers were operating 'outside the chain of command' and there was apparently an inquiry after this report was written.

The next part of the article describes just how well H had everything prepared, how coordinated they were and how good it's intelligence and security was.

It then goes into the failure of Israel's initial attacks and it's failure during the entire conflict to kill a major member of H.

Israeli's apparent plan was the same as the one she always uses against the people of Gaza

However in this case as in all the others it produced the opposite result to the one Israel wanted. They blame he people who are attacking them and ally with those who are attacking those who are attacking them.

After the first week Israel was not achieving her aims with her ariel bombardment, H was doing fine so they asked Olmert if they could widen the targets which he agreed to apparently knowing this meant they were not being successful. I am guessing it is illegal to admit failure in Israel

and this went on getting worse

"The 2006 Qana Airstrike (also referred to as the 2006 Qana Massacre[1][2] or Second Qana Massacre[3][4])" was the result of stretching of the area to be bombed.


but there was a 48 hour Israeli cease fire after it which H also kept. There was apparently just one or two lone exceptions. The ability of H to have sufficient discipline over its commanders that they kept this cease fire was apparently a 'distinctly unwanted shock' to IDF Senior Commanders as it illustrated that it's communication had withstood the airstrikes, the leadership was in touch with commanders on the ground and leadership and commanders upheld robust communication. Israel had failed in her intention to separate H's fighters from their command structure which is considered necessary in modern warfare. Israel's intelligence on H had been totally inaccurate.

and Israel knew nothing about this.


He then goes into the initial failures. Israel's first meeting to discuss this taking only 3 hours

http://www.conflictsforum.org/2006/how-hezbollah-defeated-israel/

It looks like you got into this war because some soldiers were being sloppy feeling high about their time ending rather than paying attention to the job in hand. They then went in pursuit into Lebanon and got killed. It seems that after that you were arrogant and felt you could easily destroy these 'terrorists' once and for all but they to be frank had been working much more intelligently than yourselves and were much more prepared for your attack. It would appear you wrongly believed they were just rough fighters not aware of modern fighting....and so yes you lost. You lost the war because Hezbolla came out of it in one piece and you lost the support of all of Lebanon which was the opposite of your intention. Rather than them all moving against Hezbollah, they all moved towards them. As regards the kidnapping of the soldiers, you had been given apparently years of warning that this would happen if you did not follow your agreement and release prisoners. It looks like you were the one in the wrong and yes, Hezbollah showed the limits of your ability which is what people are forever saying

I imagine Israel is taking care to safeguard itself against the targets Nasrallah has said he has if you make a further invasion/attack. Looks like he is a man who keeps his word.. It looks like Israel slept walked into this war due to her arrogance and to all intents and purposes lost it though of course she killed and injured vastly more people than H did. It also appears that this was not planned by either side, that H never expected you to engage in war when it did kidnap your soldiers and that despite lack on immediate preparations H was prepared enough to deal with an unexpected attack..

 

In your previous post, Einstein, where you wrote "May I kindly remind you that Israel was already in a state of war...."

 

the Jewish population of the Pale Settlement also increased a lot during the early 20th century. By your logic that means it was a Utopia.

 

Arab propganda is truley amazing I give you that.

 

So you cannot refute anything which has been said. I can however refute your claim that it is 'Arab Propaganda'. If you had read the link I gave you you would have discovered that they reported it was limited due to Hezbollah's refusal to talk. It hence did not get it's information from them. One of the authors Alisatire Crooke is ex MI6. Mark Perry is an American specialising in military intelligence and foreign affairs analysis. They draw on the initial report by Anthony H. Cordesman so no, not Arabs but of course imagine that the only person who could find different information to what you believe would have to be an Arab and say 'arab propaganda' even when this is totally untrue, when you cannot refute....or is just saying Arab enough to have anything dismissed in Israel?


You are showing yourself to be somewhat insincere by responding to whatever you do not know a s 'propaganda'. One mistake I think they made from having had a look at other things this morning is that it looks like three Israel soldiers were killed when the soldiers were being kidnapped, the other five chasing after them into Lebanon and dying there.

The report they give fits in with what Avnery said which was that Israel had no plan for the war and I have found another video which fits in with this by Fawwaz Traboulsi, Prof Lebanese American University, although he says that it is now known that the impetuous for war against Lebanon came from the US, from the Bush admin still fighting its war on terror. I have no idea if he is right about the US encouraging this. He is the only person I have seen saying it. However he then claims that originally it was just going to be the usual 4 day retaliation which Israel always did when soldiers were kidnapped - showing that Avnery was indeed right that Israel usually reacted to this with retaliation. He also says his hunch is that it was Olmert who decided to go for a full scale war - on the advice ot the Bush admin according to him. This to some extent fits in with the link I gave you and what I said in that they say that after 3 days of ineffective bombing, they asked Olmert if they could expand their bombing area - and of course this led to the full scale attack, massive destruction of Lebanon and civilian deaths - so that is suggesting that possibly initially it was intended to give the usual response which was a 4 day battering but for some reason they decided to expand this into a full scale war. This would go with the desire to get rid of the 'terrorist' group Hezbolla - and remember there were also attacks on Gaza during this war though not widely reported in the press.

This also fits in with the change in intention of Europe towards Palestine. Prior to 2003 the EU was working honestly to try and get the two State solution agreed in Oslo to come into being. In particular they had hired Alistaire Crooke to work with Hamas and to find out if they were capable of bringing into negotiations. He was very experienced at this kind of work having worked at it both in Afghanistan and in Northern Ireland. He was finding this work was going very well, said Hamas did not recognise Israel just because Israel did not recognise them and that they would be capable of negotiations. However on Bush's asking, Blair managed to get the EU to give up on it's duty really being one of the 4, to get the agreed two state solution. Instead they were to declare Hamas terrorist, putting them on the same footing as Al Qaeda and stopping Crooke's work which was showing signs of success.. Along with this they were going to allow Israel to build jails to put Palestinian political activists in and allow Israel to use one of the best armies in the world against a small guerilla army living among civilians. This went totally against all intention prior to 9/11 but does fit in with Fawwaz Traboulsi belief, which he believes is known, that it was the US who encouraged Olmert to wage war on Lebanon with the intent of scoring a win in the war on terror. Something which obviously absolutely failed.

Permanent Temporariness

and I have found the reason why Hezbollah did not disband and it is what I can remember the Lebanese Christian woman saying several years ago. You did not fully leave Lebanon. You remained in the Shebaa farms

http://www.antiwar.com/pena/?articleid=11459

 

Excusing Hizbi attack by saying it was merely "opportunistic" for that specific day while Israel attack to part of some genocide/ethnic cleansing plan - is Arab propaganda.

Attacking our border and kidnapping soldiers require a lot of planning because the border is covered, find a weak spot, plan a distraction escape route etc' demand alot of planning, I'm not here to argue with you on the color of **** or play demagogy games.

 

if the situation was as they perceived it to be then it was indeed opportunistic. That is reality. If it was not as they say it was, then you can argue that point.

Well they were arguing that it was not covered. I am pretty sure I gave a link on that. If not you could have seen by looking at the link. Their argument was that Hezbollah did not want to kidnap any soldiers at the time as it was Lebanon's time for a lot of rich visitors and obviously they would not want Israel bombing for 4 days at that time.

Of course there would need to be a lot of planning under normal circumstances. They say

then they say

they also mention later that they soldiers were about to finish their time there, suggesting they may have psychologically done so already. As I said earlier there was also a suggestion that they may have been acting 'outside the chain of command

http://www.conflictsforum.org/2006/how-hezbollah-defeated-israel/

I do not know if they are right or not and to me it is a minor point. It is known the intention was at some time to kidnap some of your soldiers to get prisoners back. The reality is though, they were certainly correct that you did little to harm Hezbollah and your intelligence was dreadful. Hezbollah came out the winner......but the war was not necessary and far too many civilians were killed. However as I said that is what Israel will do until she has all the land she wants. She has no interest in negotiating at the moment. It would not benefit her. Hence BDS.

I did by the way fully answer everything you said in that post. Fully. However somehow it has got cut. Partly because I need to go out and do not want to spend the time again and partly because it is possibly meant to be so, I am leaving that for now. However as you know I have never said Israel is committing genocide. Now before I get started I shall go, though may answer it later again.

 

It is reality because you say so, I say its was not and was planned probebly many months ahead to be more or less together with Shalit which also took months of planning.

I say its BS, they did and that's all that matters. besides that to argue it was not planned is to very very ignorant to what goes on the border which Im sure you never been to, breech and escape cannot be without proper planning.

You are trying to embaress me but all I care about was that they did kidnap the soldiers, I dont care if they were tanning in the sun, and about that 3 prisoners nonesense - was that what Hizbi demanded in return ? 3 prisoners ? so why are you dancing around it ?

Israel wants the land of Lebanon it retreated from in 2000 ? more nonsense propaganda....
I dont care how you Israel haters rank the war, like I said Arabs never lost. all I care about is the outcome and that's 11 years of quite more or less, 5 years till Syria war - and that's what we got in return, now if you say Hizbi won - than Iguess its victors courtesy, whatever, I dont care

 

No you are being dishonest here. I said

and that is correct. If what Mark and Perry says is true then Hezbolla kidnapped the soldiers opportunistically. Anyone who understood English would understand that, Possibly yours is not good though I have never seen any problems that I can remember.

They do not agree with you. Here is what they say

Then prove it Gilos. This is a debate forum.

Why does it upset you so much that people believe the situation was different from how you perceive it to be. Why does this make you have the emotional reaction it does? You are believing the Israeli version. Mark and Perry say it is not right. Why does it matter so much to you. That really is important. Think about it.

and yet both these men have far more experience in this area of work than you. Do you not think it might be a bit ignorant to claim people who have spoken to experts and who are themselves such are ignorant. Something strange has happened in the world of Gilos. Everything is upside down.

I have sufficient faith in their knowledge that they will know all about the situation there. Certainly Crook has spent a great deal of time in Lebanon. He will have seen and know all about that but a why are you trying to make Mark Perry & Alastair Crooke's article my article. Flattered though I am, it is not mine, it is there's. Gilos have you never understood that people have different opinions on things. I do not know whether I agree with this aspect or not. It was written shortly after the war and was their informed opinion. Why does people who work in this area giving a different supposition to what you believe make you go to pieces. Because that is what it seems like. What is so personal to you that you take it so personally and cannot bare other people having a different judgement. Is it because of what they write near the end.

because that is a very dangerous position to have and indeed according to that article the very attitude which lost Israel the 2006 Lebanon war.

No Gilos, I was giving you more information. The fact that you believe I gave you more information in order to embarrass you when I gave you more information to clarify what they said about the situation, yet again, suggests you are not looking at this in any way objectively but rather that you somehow feel involved with what happened that day. I don't think you were Gilos.

Not true Gilos. You have already made a massive fuss that it must be by the way the Israeli Government said it. I remember how shocked my daughter was when she discovered Tony Blair had lied to us about Iraq. She lost her innocence. You sound like someone like that. That you just cannot bare to think that your government could ever be wrong or deceive you - and that is regardless of whether Perry and Crooke are right on this. That's sad.

No darling more somewhat psychotic writing from you.

Here is what you are answering

and I still believe the reason you have not been able to come to a peaceful resolution is because you do not as yet have all the land you want and hence to come to one would not benefit you at all. In fact you would lose by so doing. It is not in your interest.

Just dealing with Palestine and your desires on East Jerusalem and most of the West Bank makes that point.

and you are wrong. Though lets not put all Arab people together as if one was just like the next one. We are speaking specifically about Hezbolla winning the 2006 Lebanon War and everyone knows that and says that and laughs at you - (and you deserve me saying that the way you have been going on!). First of all you said Avnery was wrong because he does not think like you. True he wants peace and a 2 State solution. Then you are given more information written by people whose

http://www.conflictsforum.org/2006/how-hezbollah-defeated-israel/

this you call 'Arab Propaganda'

Then I give you more information including some from an Arab Professor who I accept you will not look at as you believe Arab;s can only write propagandabut nonetheless I showed how there were links between what Avnery, Crooke and Perry and the Professor said as well as this fitting in with the decision in around 2003 that the EU made to stop working to get a two State solution as per Oslo but instead simply allow Israel to build more jails to put Political activists in and to use her army against some guerrillas living among civilians while at the same time ending on going conflict resolution talks which were showing success and were needed to secure the two State solution.

At this point you start talking about genocide.


I think you simply do not have the ability to accept what your country gets up to so you shut your eyes to it.

What sort of people will not let people have their dead to bury - your people.

Even in death, Palestinians have to fight for their freedom

what sort of people
carry out violent hospital raids in ruthless display of force
your people.

You have a Government which is widely believed to be on the edge of fascism but you still cling on not believing what is, playing a victim that people only say the nasty things because they hate Israel, not that they say the things which you find nasty because they are true.

Now, you comment on genocide and ethnic cleansing on one of your replies. You have accused me of saying Israel is guilty of Genocide at least four times and I have pointed out to you at least as many times that I have not said that ---but still you keep coming back saying the same thing like a child crying for it's mother. Do I think the Israeli Government cares about the lives of Palestinians - No. Do I think some Israelis care about the lives of Palestinians - very much so. Does Israel commit war crimes and ignore the rules of war concerning care of civilians - very definitely - but there always are Israelis who speak up. This happened after Cast Lead and the much worse 2014 Gaza war but there again some of your soldiers spoke up.

https://sputniknews.com/middleeast/201505051021711335/

To you however none of these things happen. You shut your eyes to it. You call it propaganda. How could people speak like this about your so kind moral country - they must be lying. Well when you have said that to me I have not been lying. Whether Perry and Crooke are correct in their belief about how the soldiers were taken I do not yet know and I do accept that I put it as a fact when reporting it yesterday. You had been irritating me earlier an I was tired and I did not take the time say as I should have said - they say...but I do know that what they wrote is mainly right and is most certainly not 'arab propaganda' but then in a country where having a different opinion to your extreme right Government results in you being called a traitor, and where outside negative feedback is always proclaimed to be antisemitism, I guess unthinking agreement is the easiest way.

 

This is why I've put some posters on ignore including several in this thread; all they do is lie and run interference for hezbollah, hamas, iran or other terrorists. My hope is that the authorities are watching the forum and are monitoring these people so they can be arrested and/or deported.

As for the 2006 attack, the hez filth long ago admitted it was planned as a kidnap enter-and-grab operation, there is nothing to debate about it.

http://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/...diers-that-led-to-second-lebanon-war-1.454129

 

so u want censorship?

 

I read fast and skipped a word, go cry to the UN about it.

You just take advantage that I dont have that much free time as you have and post links to opinions that suits me...

"Nor is it the case, as was initially reported, that Hezbollah coordinated its activities with Hamas. Hamas was taken by surprise by the abductions and, while the Hamas leadership defended Hezbollah actions, in hindsight it is easy to see why they might not have been pleased by them: over the course of the conflict Israel launched multiple military operations against Hamas in Gaza, killing dozens of fighters and scores of civilians. The offensive went largely unnoticed in the West, thereby resuscitating the adage that “when the Middle East burns, the Palestinians are forgotten”.

So why do they think Hamas was taken by surprise ? they just decided so or did they elaborate ?

The only words that matter in your qoute are these "Hamas was taken by surprise" and no explanation why, what is obvious is the rest of qoute than suggests a strong politic affiliation thus bais report - “when the Middle East burns, the Palestinians are forgotten”
FYI - the world didnt turn a blind eye on Gaza, Hamas was already at war with Israel since Gilad shalit Jun-Nov 2006, they simply undersood kidnapping soldiers means war.

BS no one can prove intent its an opinion just like yours is and your experts.

Ohh now you try mind games on me Im not having an emotional reaction you simply declared Mark and Perry are right and I disagree that they are just because you say so

No that's not what Im saying and funny enough I feel the same, I guess we truly are opposites that's a rare thing like finding a soul mate
They are experts and been talking to experts but like anyone else they are affiliated and I could get that just from the part you qouted, what I said here are not just my personal opinions, I live here and I know things - at least from Israel side - that you cant possibly know just like you know on Scotland and its policies with England, I witnessed all the live reports before during and after the war for months, I heard our experts, generals and leaders that know at least as much as your experts but at least officialy belive otherwise, now you'll say they are tainted, I say yours are tainted, all I can offer are my opinions and the ppl close to me take it or leave it.

I dont mind that they have "different judgement"......, I simply stated the Israeli one - you conterdicted it with your experts and I said they were wrong.

Nobody said we didnt make mistakes but your party turned it to Hizbi victory just because we admitted mistakes, nothing in that war could point to hizbi victory, the support they got is something we all assumed they already have when we bombed whole of Lebanon.

But the info you give are not facts just opinions and when opinions go against formal reports than they need to be proven and till then they cannot objectivly be more true that official report , I simply said it doesnt matter if they were shagging sheeps or on high alert when they got attacked, simply they got attacked will do. whether it was planned with Hamas or not - both of them dared to kidnap our soldiers putting us in a dangerous situation and that - like I said - had to be stopped, they would lose more than they will gain.

I made a massive fuss ? where ? disagreeing with you ?
I said in my first post that Israel had to stop the trend of kidnapping its soldiers - I said I and Israel belive it was coordinated - but if you understand the first sentance I wrote than it doesnt really matter whether they did or didnt plan it together - just the fact they did do it together because both had the intent and its the intent that we uproot with war, clear now ?

Sorry dont have time for that, I think we understand each other.

 

You actually do need to prove you dont have a sister to some ppl

 

Of course America's infestation of disloyal "Israel Firsters" want censorship of anything critical of America's most insidious, parasitic and treacherous enemy, Israel's repressive, grasping & aggressive Right Wing government.
That is essentially what this thread is about, a bill forwarded by AIPAC owned & operated US politicians to ban the right of Americans to boycott Israel for its government's criminal land grabs & ethnic cleansing.

If there is any security threat facing America, it is not from BDS groups but rather from America's Zionist "Fifth Column" and glut of Hasbara Trolls:

"ISRAEL WON'T STOP SPYING ON THE US"
http://www.newsweek.com/2014/05/16/israel-wont-stop-spying-us-249757.html

EXCERPT "The Jewish state’s primary target: America’s industrial and technical secrets.

“No other country close to the United States continues to cross the line on espionage like the Israelis do,” said a former congressional staffer who attended another classified briefing in late 2013, one of several in recent months given by officials from the Department of Homeland Security (DHS), the State Department, the FBI and the National Counterintelligence Directorate.

The intelligence agencies didn’t go into specifics, the former aide said, but cited “industrial espionage—folks coming over here on trade missions or with Israeli companies working in collaboration with American companies, [or] intelligence operatives being run directly by the government, which I assume meant out of the [Israeli] Embassy.” CONTINUED


"Stealing Success Tel Aviv Style"
http://original.antiwar.com/giraldi/2010/01/27/stealing-success-tel-aviv-style/

EXCERPT "That is the significant advantage that Israel has gained by systematically stealing American technology with both military and civilian applications. The US developed technology is then reverse engineered and used by the Israelis to support their own exports with considerably reduced research and development costs, giving them a huge advantage against American companies.

Sometimes, when the technology is military in nature and winds up in the hands of a US adversary, the consequences can be serious. Israel has sold advanced weapons systems to China that are believed to incorporate technology developed by American companies, including the Python-3 air-to-air missile and the Delilah cruise missile."CONTINUED

 

Grau is back! Mosel Tov! Now, if we can only get moon back too, once against we can have a lively anti Israel discussion

 

Sorry two parts again.

Hamas would obviously be surprised if they did not already know which is what he is suggesting.

It is self evident. They were not expecting it.

However I was just looking for Uri Avnery's article again and I found a different one which may be the reason for you believing the were acting together. In it he appears to believe that Hezbollah did the kidnap to get the heat of Hamas and the people of Gaza.

https://theshalomcenter.org/node/1162

I am unaware of the call for help and certainly do not remember, though I am beginning to have a faint memory of something as grizzely as he describes happening to the Palestinians but is this why you believe they were in cahoots. That Gaza was being hammered and the people said 'for gods sake will some one help us' and Hezbollah kidnapped a soldier? I can see how that could possibly look like Nasrallah was trying to get the heat off the Palestinians but it does not sound all that credible to me and there would certainly be no need of Hamas to know about this. Indeed one thing Hezbollah appears to have taken on board is the need for as few people to know things as possible. Avnery seems to believe Nasralliah got somewhat carried away seeing himself as something of the new Messiah and I would agree that if that was the reason, that if they believed doing that would help Hamas, they were somewhat carried away. I suspect there would be more productive ways to help them but I am neither a war or terrorist expert.

Crooke does have a strong feeling for Hamas and the Palestinians. He worked with them and gained their trust and they gained his too in that he believed they could be brought round to the position where a successful peace deal could be done. He was less than pleased at being brought out when he was making such progress and believes the Palestinians were done out of their agreed State and kept in turmoil..so yes, he does feel for them. One of the reasons no doubt why he started Conflicts Forum in Lebanon. The reality is that if Blair had not chosen to do as Bush asked of him , that is to get the EU to call Hamas a terrorist group and pull their man, Crooke, out of Gaza ,while giving Israel a free hand to do what she wanted, there almost certainly would have been a resolution to the conflict. I suspect you might have preferred that too. Crooke has more reason than most for cynicism. However he is a trained intelligence officer. He is not going to let his personal feelings get in the way of what he sees as the facts....and Gilos, you can hardly say the Israeli sources you follow are not biased - I would say much more so as they have an agenda.

TBH I am not up on all that was happening then. I did not start following this in any way till Cast Lead. However I can tell you that the people of Britain would not see the kidnapping of a soldier by an occupied people as an act of war. I think what Crooke was talking about was possibly the attack on Gaza that Avnery speaks of above. This apparently was causing massive upset among the masses in Muslim Populations. The fact that none of their leaders stood up to Israel and Hezbolla did, whether it was agreed or not, according to another article I have found that Crooke wrote in connection to the 2006 Lebanon War, it caused basically revolutionary changes in the ME which is indeed true as it gave birth to the Arab Spring. Check out the article, remember it was written in 2006 and see how well he has judged the situation.

http://www.conflictsforum.org/2006/how-hezbollah-defeated-israel-3/

If all you have in an opinion then it is worth nothing. You have to give your reasons for your opinion. They don't need to be hard facts but you do need on a debate forum to give your reasons. Was it connected to the quote I gave from Avnery above?

Well you may not have yet come to the place where I admitted I did say what they were saying was facts when I should just have said it was what they said. This may well be reality but from what I have been reading since there seems to be quite a lot of different tales on this situation going on. So if you want something to be more than an opinion and you don't have hard sources then you can check it with other things. That is what I did yesterday morning and things started making connections which is what I wrote about my next post.

http://www.politicalforum.com/index...cotts-of-israel.510286/page-9#post-1067823530

You often need to be a detective to put things together and a lot of things started coming together with me yesterday morning which began to give me an idea of how I think things went....and no that is not my opinion, it is seeing the connections between happenings and what people say. You are free to disagree as long as you give your reason for so doing. You can't necessarily say something is right just from one piece of information but when things begin to fit together and you can begin to see a pattern, it becomes more likely. Most of the time for most people though it is just being fed what whoever owns the station we are listening to wants us to hear which obviously can be far fro the truth.

OK...

Ah! but there you are wrong. They work for Conflicts Forum in Beirut which they set up themselves.

http://www.conflictsforum.org/

Yes I could go searching for where the funding comes from. I think Crooke set this up after he was removed from his work in Gaza. I have spoken a bit about his position above. Where he does differ is that he does not see things as black and white as either 'side' and that ought to make him more objective. Also with his past work he will be well in touch with Americans and Israelis in the know as well likely as also Hamas and Hexbollah. They said their conclusions came after much talk with appropriate people which will have obviously been quite different to what is given for a press release. As I said they also took into opinion what Anthony Cordesman said and further Crooke was in Lebanon during the war (anyway I am sure I read that). I believe he would probably be able to get far better and broader information than most people. He also absolutely knows his subject. He also almost certainly has contacts in Hamas and very possibly in hezbolla as well. Remember he is an experienced spy. He knows how to get information and speaking of that, it is not impossible it was from direct communication with Hamas that he knew they were surprised at Hezbollah's move.

 

Part 2

You cannot rely on information from your country once it goes to war. They are going to tell you what they want you to know, true or false and they are going to try and get you agreeing with them. I know that in the 2014 Gaza war you did not get a lot of information which I got so no, I do not think that the fact you were in Israel would mean you got the most accurate news, Exactly the same is true when we are at war here in the West. I bet those in Arab countries saw a much more honest account of the removal of the Saddham statue than we did delivered to our screens presented live by our own reporters. You have to be a detective then too.

I believe that Crooke would be a better than most for honest reporting on this. That does not mean that everything he writes will be 100% which is why I said when you then see others saying things which are very similar you can maybe start to see a pattern and can get more confident. What the BBC used to do which annoyed Israel was speak to the Palestinians while also showing the Israelis attacking them. Now I would not imagine you would be shown things that way. I am betting they would not get Palestinians to go on television in Israel explaining how things are for them. They would not put people from Gaza on describing the situation as it is for them. Usually when you are in any kind of war situation, your government will work hard so that you do not see the humanity of the people you are fighting. Everyone learnt that after the Vietnam war so now they like journalists to be 'embedded' with armies and the army is very much in control of what you get to see and film. Independent journalists often end up dead.

You sound like you have calmed down. I can remember ....well never mind. Here is what seems to have come together for me.

I have not as yet found anyone else saying what Crooke and Perry said about it being an opportunist attack but I was listening to a video last night and they mentioned not that they were basically forgetting to protect themselves but they did mention that you had been on a high alert that kidnapping of soldiers was a possibility and that that had been removed that day and people were relaxed and looking forward to getting home at 12 o'clock.I am not saying that proves what they said but it does fit in with being relaxed.

Lets try and see if there are some places where we can get agreement.

We know that you had never started a war before because of the kidnap of soldiers and that Hezbolla very definitely did not expect a war and Nasrallah would not have agreed to kidnapping soldiers if he had known what the result would be.I think we can agree on that.

We know that the normal response to the kidnapping of soldiers was 4 days of bombing and then quiet negotiations. - agreed?

We know Israel had made no plan for a war - agreed? These two things seem to be what Avnery, Perry and Crooke and the Prof all say and they sound right. Are you in agreement with that?

Now we get to the point where there is a meeting with Olmert and a decision is made to expand the air strikes.

Perry and Crooke have the IAF asking Olmerts agreement

The Prof suggests it was Olmerts decision to make it into a war on Bush's advice - to sort out those terrorists and in particular because of an intended attack on Iran. The benefit of attacking Lebanon was to stop Hezbollah attacking Israel during a future war against Iran. That is why he believes the 2006 war happened....and it is looking exceedingly plausible. Part of the war on terror but not as simple as just to get rid of one lot of terrorists but also to clear a path for the next stage. Iran and Syria. Israel 'losing' the war apparently ruined this and also apparently a lot of support among Conservatives in the US. Crooke sees the 2006 Lebanon war as Israel acting as the US proxy so it is looking like rather than it being simply a reaction to the kidnapping of soldiers there was something larger going on.

and having read the other article by Crooke, I can understand why the Prof thought this.

http://www.conflictsforum.org/2006/how-hezbollah-defeated-israel-3/

So it sounds like it was from the Lebanon war that people were sloppily equating Hamas and Hezbolla with Al Qaeda and in reality set the stage for the eventual coup in Egypt. This is really strong opinion making propaganda. (Don't argue that one with me for a while, just hold it at the back of your mind. )

The rest of that article is just amazing. You should read it. Crooke talks about how Rice said that the ME had been changed for ever and an EU visitor to Egypt said “The Egyptian leadership is walking down one side of the street,” he said, “and the Egyptian people are walking down the other.” Egypt, Jordan and Saudi Arabia had kept still and allowed Israel to hammer Gaza. Hezbolla had entered the scene and 'beaten Israel', The rulers of Egypt, Jordan and SA as well as others were on notice. The people of the ME were singing the praises of Hezbollah and Iran even Iraq. He foresaw that there was going to be massive changes in the ME though it has not turned out as it appeared at the time. He saw Syria which had looked after so many Lebanese during the war as invariably growing in strength. He believed an attack on Irans nuclear facilities was now an impossibility. It would cause uproar in the ME and likely finish off their leaders.

He looks at how Israel responded at 72. How they came to a peace agreement with Egypt but he does not see this happening this time as both Egypt and Israel were on good terms with the US which is not the situation here. He concerns himself that Israel is showing none of its usual strength and ability for self reflection when something has gone wrong. He hopes the Government will take the opportunity to move towards getting a peaceful settlement with the Palestinians and he sees as one of the things Israel would need to do in order to achieve this being to remove herself from US influence - to stop being the US proxy in the region...so he is seeing Israel being used by the US in that back and forth question of which controls which.

However he does not think, due to Israel not engaging in introspection that she is going to move that way. He imagines instead she will want to reassert her power and may well do this with an even worse attack on Gaza which of course happened in Cast Lead and sadly, ever more force, appears to have been the broken record of Israel since.

It is fascinating. It is looking like ISIS and crew moving into Syria was the antidote to what was happening after the 2006 Lebanon war. That, how shall I put it, they are the people keeping the Saud's in power allowing the military back in power in Egypt and US Hegemony reasserted in the ME

They write them as facts. The obviously believe they are facts, though as I said that does not mean everything they say is accurate particularly when it was written so soon after the war.

show your formal reports. I am new to studying this. As I said a brief look yesterday appeared to show a lot of different stories.

Well being objective would be assessing both with as I said other information you can collect and seeing which appears more plausible.

It is not unknown for reports to tell porkies. It usually takes us decades and report after report in the UK till we eventually get the truth out that people usually knew all along anyway!!

enjoy your day.

 

Thanks,

If you'll read my post more closely you'll note that I was not being critical of Israel in general but of its Right Wing government & its policies.
I'll agree that there is much positive about Israel & its people but sadly those positive features are eclipsed by the Right Wing's incessant land grabs, racism and ethnic cleansing.
It is precisely those Right Wing policies etc that have rendered Israel one of the world's least popular countries:

“BBC Poll: Israel Among World's Least Popular Nations”
http://www.haaretz.com/news/world/bb...tions-1.525890

EXCERPT“The annual BBC World Service poll finds Germany most popular; only countries less popular than Israel are North Korea, Pakistan and Iran.”CONTINUED


Enjoy your weekend

 

What a little Nazi you are.

 

That he should have written

gives you an indication of what they are doing to Palestinians.


Israel-Palestine: Social Media As a Tool Of Oppression

Israel Targeting Palestinian Protesters on Facebook

Palestinians are being arrested by Israel for posting on Facebook

They have also shut down many Palestinian news services and are wanting to ban Al Jazeera.

 

update. is done
Netanyahu Praises Communications Minister’s Decision to Close Al Jazeera’s Israel Office